MLB HOFer Joe Morgan has passed at age 77.
He was an integral part of the Big Red Machine that won back to back WS.
He was an integral part of the Big Red Machine that won back to back WS.
RIP Joe Morgan
- Thread starter unassuming
- Start date
Oh no...one of the great second basemen for sure...I also liked him on the Sunday night baseball broadcast with Jon Miller.
The Oracle
Pronouns: Who/Cares
Joe Morgan or Roberto Alomar?
Here are the stats
www.baseball-reference.com
www.baseball-reference.com
Within 1 RBI of each other over their respective careers. That's about as close as it gets.
Robbie had by far the better post season numbers though. Joe struggled when it counted it seems.
Joe has the much higher WAR though...Not even close there. Plus those two MVP's
Really liked him as a broadcaster as well. Very smooth and informative delivery.
A sad day. But his pain is over now......
Here are the stats
Joe Morgan Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Joe Morgan. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com
www.baseball-reference.com
Roberto Alomar Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roberto Alomar. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com
www.baseball-reference.com
Within 1 RBI of each other over their respective careers. That's about as close as it gets.
Robbie had by far the better post season numbers though. Joe struggled when it counted it seems.
Joe has the much higher WAR though...Not even close there. Plus those two MVP's
Really liked him as a broadcaster as well. Very smooth and informative delivery.
A sad day. But his pain is over now......
Really sad news, the Big Red Machine was perhaps the best baseball team of all time - hitting wise.
Look at their batting lineup circa 1975.
Rose
Morgan
Griffey
Perez
Bench
Foster
Geronimo
Conception
Pitcher
Look at their batting lineup circa 1975.
Rose
Morgan
Griffey
Perez
Bench
Foster
Geronimo
Conception
Pitcher
Joe Morgan or Roberto Alomar?
Here are the stats
Joe Morgan Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Joe Morgan. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com
Roberto Alomar Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roberto Alomar. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com
Within 1 RBI of each other over their respective careers. That's about as close as it gets.
Robbie had by far the better post season numbers though. Joe struggled when it counted it seems.
Joe has the much higher WAR though...Not even close there. Plus those two MVP's
Really liked him as a broadcaster as well. Very smooth and informative delivery.
A sad day. But his pain is over now......
Tough call, I give the edge to Morgan.
Perhaps not:
.317
.327
.305
.282
.283
.300
.327
.274
TBA: .271
1931 Yankees, just as an example:
.327
.341
.267
.280
.302
.373
.318
.315
TBA: .297
It doesn't take that much effort to find better examples.
Joe Morgan or Roberto Alomar?
Here are the stats
Joe Morgan Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Joe Morgan. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com
Roberto Alomar Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roberto Alomar. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com
Within 1 RBI of each other over their respective careers. That's about as close as it gets.
Robbie had by far the better post season numbers though. Joe struggled when it counted it seems.
Joe has the much higher WAR though...Not even close there. Plus those two MVP's
Really liked him as a broadcaster as well. Very smooth and informative delivery.
A sad day. But his pain is over now......
Not really that close. Joe Morgan is the better player. His 6 year peak run in the early to mid 70s is one of the best peaks in baseball since 1950. He was the best player on the big red machine, and modern analytics which more greatly appreciate walk totals have shown his greatness.
I loooooved those two guys on Sunday night baseball. Dan Shulman is my favorite, and then those two guys. As a kid I used to love watching Sunday night baseball because of them calling it.
The Oracle
Pronouns: Who/Cares
His post season stats are really quite pedestrian at best though.......I don't think WAR metrics take that into account. Not sure though.
That's where Robbie excelled.
Also was Morgan really better than Bench on the Reds?.......Kind of a toss up if you ask me.
Alomar may have been the Jays and MLBs best player...Morgan might have been 4th best on the Reds
Undervaluing walks seemed so stupid back in the day. Even as kids, we knew players who could draw walks held special value. Now MLB has figured out taking pitches especially on a starter has unique value.
The value of a walk in the second deadball era (~1964-1972) in which Morgan played would have been even higher.
Fair point on playoffs. While there is a large gap between the two based on regular season peak value, Alomar rose his play in the playoffs while Morgan’s play fell noticeably which closes the gap. Morgan’s 37 walks in 50 playoff games is the only thing that allowed him to get close to average as a playoff performer and he is still below it. WAR typically excludes playoffs, but it is something that can be calculated for the playoffs. But playoff at bats are such a small component of your career totals it won’t change the WAR much.
As for Bench vs Morgan. Bench was more early 70s dominant, and he also had some between years after 76. They have similar career worth I would say — both all time greats. But from 1972 to 1976 it was not really a contest. Morgan won 2 mvps in that 5 year period, and was 4th twice.
Between 72 and 76, Morgan had an OPS of .933 and WAR of 47.8, while bench had an OPS of .834 and WAR of 32.3. Although a gap is expected between a catcher and position player. Both great numbers, both gold glovers, but Morgan has the clear edge in his peak period.
Where do you get this stuff. Morgan may have been the 4th best on the Reds?
Between 1972 and 1976 the age of the BIg Red Machine, Joe morgan had a WAR of 47.8. The next best in all of baseball had a WAR of 35.0. He won 2 MVPS in those years and had 4 top 5 finishes in that period. The 47.8 WAR over a 5 year period is one of the best of the past 70 years.
But somehow he was maybe the 4th best player on the reds?
Alomars best WARs in his career were 7.4, 7.3 and 6.6 his best year with the jays. His top mvp finish in his career was 3rd and top with the Jays was sixth. Morgan averaged a WAR of 9.6 in the 5 year big red machine era and won 2 mvps.
I don’t intend to slam Alomar. He was a great player and hall of famer. But at his 5 year peak many hall of famers were not at the level of MOrgan.
Last edited:
WAR isn’t the be all, it doesn’t take into consideration how much more difficult it is too play catcher.
Johnny Bench won two mvps himself and I consider him to him to be the best Cincinnati Red.
Pete Rose gave a lot that sabermetrics don’t measure and also won an mvp as well.
George Foster won an mvp also, but I’d probably put Morgan ahead of him.
And, I still think of Roberto Alomar as the Blue Jay’s best player back than.
I think B.A.'s in the 1930's were generally higher than in the 1960's. For example, the guy who won the B.A. title in 1931 hit .390, the guy who hit .373 was runner-up.
List of Major League Baseball batting champions - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
thumper18474
Well-known member
Maybe to quantify the #'s
the 70's was the start of the middle relief and closers era..i think...so batters would see fresh arms in the latter innings while the pitchers saw batters who had been in the game for 2 hrs or so..fatigue setting in?? Advantage - pitcher
the 30's no middle relievers ..no closers...pitchers had to go the distance...arm fatigue sets in in the latter innings .batters were hitting beach balls
what was the batting average of the Big Red Machine from innings 1-6....and then 6th inning on...
same with the murderers row boys of the 30's
comparing the 30's from the 70's
or
70's from the 90's
or whatever gap you want is moot
different styles
rules
ball parks...and so on
