REOPENING AT STAGE 2, with recommendations for Coordinated Toronto Reopening Strategy

squeezer

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2010
20,417
14,924
113
So you are retired until there is a vaccine?
Seeing this in black and white hurts LOL...

3 ways I'll return, vaccine, treatment or it disappears. If this doesn't happen I'll probably find a couple of fuck buddies once I break down which will happen. I know it's far from 100% but safer none the less.
 

whitewaterguy

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2005
3,190
21
48
The after-the-fact phone call allows the contacted party to start isolating, and thereby mitigates further spread by them.
Twistable word play to suit one agenda. Does nothing to prevent/mitigate pre-encounter risks. It scores high on the bullshit meter. The real and only game here is ,roll the dice ... maybe pay the price. But we all know that, regardless of how it’s couched or fluffed
 

farquhar

Well-known member
Jan 25, 2019
1,142
972
113
They have a reliable way to contact you, and that in the event that a companion experiences covid symptoms or tests covid-positive within 14 days of seeing you, that they can contact you to let you know, so that you have the opportunity to get tested yourself / isolate / take other steps to protect your health.

None of this entails police, public health, or any other authorities becoming aware of the fact that you had an encounter with the companion.

This is a common-sense safety measure, with very little added privacy risk, and huge potential upside in terms of risk mitigation.
And, just what if, within that 14 days, you also saw a companion at Sexy Friends; and at Mirage; and at Toronto Passions?

Uh-oh, spaghettios. Now we have a big problem.

The only way this system works is if the agencies agree to an Information Exchange amongst each other....picture a Credit Report on Equifax or TransUnion, and apply that to pooning.

Everyone would have to be required to "register" a profile with phone number and TERB Handle with one agency; and that is then shared among ALL the agencies.

Now, if I see a girl at Allegra, and Allegra shares their list with Mirage, and I want to book with Mirage within the next 14 days - will I be allowed to book? Or will I be told no?

What if one (or more) of the agencies that advertise here decide not to be on board with what Allegra et al. are proposing? Are those agencies going to be allowed to advertise here?

Riddle me that one agency owners. I look forward to reading your reply.
 

Knuckle Ball

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2017
7,296
3,418
113
There may be some confusion here stemming from the fact that the term "contact tracing" is a buzzword that's been used by the media and governments to refer to various schemes of varying levels of privacy-invasiveness.

As I understand, Allegra is simply asking that:

  • They have a reliable way to contact you, and that in the event that a companion experiences covid symptoms or tests covid-positive within 14 days of seeing you, that they can contact you to let you know, so that you have the opportunity to get tested yourself / isolate / take other steps to protect your health.
  • And in turn, that if you experience covid symptoms or test covid-positive within 14 days of seeing a companion, you agree to contact them so they can let the companion know, and give her the opportunity to get tested / isolate / take other steps to protect their health.

None of this entails police, public health, or any other authorities becoming aware of the fact that you had an encounter with the companion.

This is a common-sense safety measure, with very little added privacy risk, and huge potential upside in terms of risk mitigation.

If you're concerned about e.g. your SO glimpsing an unscheduled inbound text from Allegra, I'm sure they'd be open to contacting you through more private means such as TERB PM.
What you are describing may be Allegra’s intention but if the police or public health ask for their records would they not be obligated to hand them over? I have no idea what the law is when it comes to such things...but there are some municipalities that are known for being rather aggressive in their policing of the industry to begin with.
 

jetwolf

Active member
Jul 26, 2008
285
128
43
Does nothing to prevent/mitigate pre-encounter risks.
No one claimed it did.

Some of the other proposed measures mitigate pre-encounter risks. We are all aware that they don't mitigate them completely and some amount of pre-encounter risk remains.
 

Knuckle Ball

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2017
7,296
3,418
113
And, just what if, within that 14 days, you also saw a companion at Sexy Friends; and at Mirage; and at Toronto Passions.

Uh-oh, spaghettios. Now we have a big problem.

The only way this system works is if the agencies agree to an Information Exchange amongst each other....picture a Credit Report on Equifax or TransUnion, and apply that to pooning.

Everyone would have to be required to "register" a profile with phone number and TERB Handle with one agency; and that is then shared among ALL the agencies.

Now, if I see a girl at Allegra, and Allegra shares their list with Mirage, and I want to book with Mirage within the next 14 days - will I be allowed to book? Or will I be told no?

Now, what if one (or more) of the agencies decides not to be on board with what Allegra et al. are proposing? Are those agencies going to be allowed to advertise here?

Riddle me that one agency owners. I look forward to reading your reply.
I doubt that what your describing will happen. It doesn’t sound realistic to me.

I still think the screening steps they described are well thought out, though. No system will be perfect and the fact is that any of us guys who visit an escort in the foreseeable future are agreeing to take on a certain level of risk.
 

farquhar

Well-known member
Jan 25, 2019
1,142
972
113
And in turn, that if you experience covid symptoms or test covid-positive within 14 days of seeing a companion, you agree to contact them so they can let the companion know, and give her the opportunity to get tested / isolate / take other steps to protect their health.
I like to think that my brothers on TERB would do the right thing in that circumstance, and I'm sure most would....but there is no way of ensuring 100% Compliance with this.
 

squeezer

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2010
20,417
14,924
113
I like to think that my brothers on TERB would do the right thing in that circumstance, and I'm sure most would....but there is no way of ensuring 100% Compliance with this.
For every 1 person that will, you will have one that will not.
 

jetwolf

Active member
Jul 26, 2008
285
128
43
And, just what if, within that 14 days, you also saw a companion at Sexy Friends; and at Mirage; and at Toronto Passions?

Uh-oh, spaghettios. Now we have a big problem.
Correct. The notification Allegra would send you would only help limit subsequent spread, not any spread that may have already occurred between the encounter and the notification. It's not a panacea, it's a risk mitigation strategy.

A client could further mitigate the risk of spread by waiting at least 14 days between appointments with a companion. But that's something a client would need to do of their own initiative, not something that can realistically be enforced.

The only way this system works is if the agencies agree to an Information Exchange amongst each other....picture a Credit Report on Equifax or TransUnion, and apply that to pooning.

Everyone would have to be required to "register" a profile with phone number and TERB Handle with one agency; and that is then shared among ALL the agencies.

Now, if I see a girl at Allegra, and Allegra shares their list with Mirage, and I want to book with Mirage within the next 14 days - will I be allowed to book? Or will I be told no?
This hypothetical alternative scheme would go further towards mitigating the risk of spreading, but it would also be much harder to pull off logistically, and clients would be less likely to consent to it.

But all this is speculation, as this is not what Allegra is proposing (as far as I can tell).
 

whitewaterguy

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2005
3,190
21
48
No one claimed it did.

Some of the other proposed measures mitigate pre-encounter risks. We are all aware that they don't mitigate them completely and some amount of pre-encounter risk remains.
I’d suggest it’s more than a soft “some”. Odds are quite high that many customers prepared to assume that risk have never stopped seeing escorts these past few months . Odds are also high that customers are not hobbying exclusively with these particular agencies. I’d suggest , from my observation and feedback from others , that quite a few guys enjoy slumming it in sleazy motels, and with sketchy providers, from time to time just to switch things up. Hopefully the women working for Allegra aren’t going to be deluding themselves into believing that a list of policies and protocols are going to keep them safe. Indeed ,The risks are going to be very high. And very real . For every rule and policy , there’s going to be dozens of clowns who care about no one but themselves , but will lead Sp’s to believe otherwise . Sex addicts and sociopaths
Simply don’t give a fuck about others
 

jetwolf

Active member
Jul 26, 2008
285
128
43
What you are describing may be Allegra’s intention but if the police or public health ask for their records would they not be obligated to hand them over? I have no idea what the law is when it comes to such things...but there are some municipalities that are known for being rather aggressive in their policing of the industry to begin with.
I am not a lawyer, but I suspect they would need a probable cause warrant to force disclosure. There are also some basic technical measures that agencies can take to protect sensitive data, such as by keeping it on an encrypted hard drive.

Agencies already store some amount of client information (for example, they must maintain a list of phone numbers of known clients, so they know whether or not they need to apply their initial screening procedure for a given call), so this is hardly a new issue.
 

farquhar

Well-known member
Jan 25, 2019
1,142
972
113
This hypothetical alternative scheme would go further towards mitigating the risk of spreading, but it would also be much harder to pull off logistically, and clients would be less likely to consent to it.

But all this is speculation, as this is not what Allegra is proposing (as far as I can tell).
If all agencies don't have access to the same information, then what Allegra is proposing is only a half-measure.

The industry does a really good job at regulating itself; and we trust that Johns have common sense and will regulate themselves; but if we are all really serious about coming back, then what I am proposing makes sense.

I'm sure the Syndicate could find a way to implement it if they really wanted to; and guys would simply have to fall in line.
 

Allegra Escorts

Supporting Member
Feb 27, 2014
3,403
444
83
Quick replies

Hey guys, while I have a few minutes... (sorry I can't address everything right away)

1) Thank you to all the owners & managers of various establishments who have replied to this post, publicly and privately. My sense is that we're all pretty much aligned on the restart date, which bodes well for a measured and well-managed resumption of services. :)

2) There's no right answer to this, and no answer that would please everyone; there are those who think we should reopen yesterday, others who think we should reopen never, and a whole bunch of opinions in between. Truth is, nobody knows what's right, we came up with the best-reasoned position that seemed to make the most sense.

3) COVID-19 is a serious public health concern, and anyone who thinks it's a total hoax is an idiot. But a complete and unending lockdown isn't an option either. The only goal of the lockdown, and the reason Allegra stopped providing services in the first place, was to give the medical system a chance to get a handle on things before the entire thing was overwhelmed. That goal was achieved, and now, a measured and careful resumption of normal life will slowly come into place, to again prevent everything from being overwhelmed. That's exactly what we're doing too, and we're planning to operate at a significantly reduced capacity.

4) COVID-19 poses different degrees of risk to different people. Thinking that everyone should just go back to normal yesterday because you're young and healthy is unreasonable; thinking that everyone should stay home forever because you're an at-risk person is equally unreasonable. Policy exists in the space between compulsory and forbidden, and our goal here is to create a policy that maximizes health and safety while still allowing for personal risk assessment and choice.

5) COVID-19 is a major health risk, but so is poverty, and so is poor mental health. I expect Allegra will operate at a loss or very small profit for at least the rest of the year, but the SPs at our collective can't collect CERB forever, and unemployment is already at an all-time high, particularly for women in the service sector. And clients who rely on sex work for therapeutic services won't be able to get similar supports over zoom. We're a social and sexual species, and eventually we're all going to want to spend time with other humans.

6) Total suppression of COVID-19 isn't an immediate possibility, and might not be for many months (until a vaccine or effective treatment is widespread, or if herd immunity is attainable, which it may or may not be). At some point, the strategy will go from suppression to management, which is why being able to trace recent contacts - especially close or intimate contacts - and stopping "superspreaders" are two crucial tactics to keep it manageable. A single superspreader in a large group of people is a bigger risk to public health than a single SP seeing 2-3 clients in a day, even if that contact is more intimate; that's why we opted for Stage 2 (with booking limitations) instead of waiting for Stage 3 (which seemed to be more focused on group activities). But an asymptomatic and unaware superspreader is a huge risk too, which is why we have to be able to text you (starting with a subtle "May I text?" message, with nothing further until we receive an affirmative reply) if there's a concern. We will NOT share any of your details with public health, and I don't think they can compel us to (a question for my lawyers, I guess) but the province and city have their hands full right now, I don't think they're set up to start banging on the doors of incalls, demanding phone records. If everyone is forthcoming and consistent about contact info, then we can at least let you know if you've come into contact with a possible spreader, or if you might be one yourself. Then, it's up to you to take the appropriate steps, and notify the appropriate people you've been close to.

7) We're all adults here, SPs and clients alike, and we're capable of making our own risk assessments in the current environment. There are certain guidelines that we follow, put forth by the province, but beyond that, it's ultimately up to you. Clients who see SPs have always done so, knowing there were some inherent risks; SPs see clients knowing the same. All we can do is adjust our behaviours within a range that we're comfortable with, to reduce that risk to a comfortable level. Sometimes an external factor comes along, and makes us recalibrate our risk tolerance; COVID-19 is such a factor. As we learn more about it, and as time goes by, our risk tolerance changes accordingly. But eventually, we all decide whether to partake or to abstain, and that's a personal decision that nobody else can make for us. You shouldn't live in a bubble your whole life, but you shouldn't run across a highway with your eyes closed either. All you can really do is make the choice that's best for you, based on what you know at the time, and hope that it turns out ok.

That's it for me for now, I'll try to address the other questions sometime next week. But in terms of bookings, we'll reopen our booking lines as soon as Doug announces the start date for Stage 2, and we'll start bookings from the start date and beyond. :)

Stay safe everyone!
Nikki
 

Richard.TO

Active member
Jun 19, 2012
556
28
28
Testing

Well written and well thought out. Question: Do you have any mandatory requirements for SPs to be tested for Covid-19 (in addition to routine STDs) on a regular basis?
 

bebe

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
5,214
456
83
Well written and well thought out. Question: Do you have any mandatory requirements for SPs to be tested for Covid-19 (in addition to routine STDs) on a regular basis?
What an invasion of privacy. If you are this chicken shit, this hobby is not for you.
 

Richard.TO

Active member
Jun 19, 2012
556
28
28
What an invasion of privacy. If you are this chicken shit, this hobby is not for you.
It’s not an invasion of privacy get your head out from up your ass. I’ve been hobbying for over a decade and never had any std. I intend to keep it that way and will also try my best to avoid getting C-19 or giving it to an sp. Precautions make sense, too bad you don’t have any with your pea sized brain
 

bebe

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
5,214
456
83
It’s not an invasion of privacy get your head out from up your ass. I’ve been hobbying for over a decade and never had any std. I intend to keep it that way and will also try my best to avoid getting C-19 or giving it to an sp. Precautions make sense, too bad you don’t have any with your pea sized brain
I have been doing this for 20 years, my last test was just before the shut down came about. All clear, always has been. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I expect the girls to look after themselves, pretty sure most do. No need to pry this deeply into the testing requirements that are put in place by the agencies.

Are you willing to get tested about every 3 to 5 days prior to seeing a girl to make sure you do not have the virus...just because the girl feels well the day you saw her 2 days laters she might start to feel unwell...any testing that is put in place will not reduce your risk to a significant degree.

I do expect if the SP wakes up in the morning and she is not feeling 100% she should do the responsible thing and cancel her shift. I have always done that in the past myself, sadly lots of guys don't.

Like I said above, if you fear for your safety this much then do not hobby at this point in time, I know that this is a tough concept for you to wrap your head around.

And finally...sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.
 

voldomort

Active member
Jun 28, 2009
213
91
28
I’d suggest it’s more than a soft “some”. Odds are quite high that many customers prepared to assume that risk have never stopped seeing escorts these past few months . Odds are also high that customers are not hobbying exclusively with these particular agencies. I’d suggest , from my observation and feedback from others , that quite a few guys enjoy slumming it in sleazy motels, and with sketchy providers, from time to time just to switch things up. Hopefully the women working for Allegra aren’t going to be deluding themselves into believing that a list of policies and protocols are going to keep them safe. Indeed ,The risks are going to be very high. And very real . For every rule and policy , there’s going to be dozens of clowns who care about no one but themselves , but will lead Sp’s to believe otherwise . Sex addicts and sociopaths
Simply don’t give a fuck about others
Why such a low opinion about the community? Just because someone likes fucking younger pretty girls does not make them a sociopath or sex addict, it just makes them a man. Other than that, clients are basically no different than non-clients.
 

Knuckle Ball

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2017
7,296
3,418
113
Well written and well thought out. Question: Do you have any mandatory requirements for SPs to be tested for Covid-19 (in addition to routine STDs) on a regular basis?
They may not be able to get tested unless they are displaying symptoms. Testing kits are still in short supply.
 
Toronto Escorts