Remembering 9/11

[Bobzilla]

I've read a very good book by Popular Mechanics called Debunking the 9/11 Myths, in which all the major "truther" allegations are refuted. I would highly recommend it. Demolition experts have said that literally tons of explosives would have been required to bring down the WTC & Bldg 7, and it's ridiculous that the work involved to plant them could go unnoticed, as someone else mentioned earlier.

Conspiracy theories are merely an attempt to explain an inexplicable event; however, when people get so invested in them that they won't even look at the evidence....well, then it's a belief. Like those douchebags who did the "Loose Change" documentary. One of them was confronted with actual evidence & he said, "I don't care, I'm not even going to look at your evidence". He had already made up his mind.

However, no matter what you believe happened on 9/11, it was the result of a conspiracy. It's just that the evidence supports that it was a conspiracy among fundamentalist Islamic nutjobs.

 

[SuperCharge]

Lets talk facts!

Here is a list of 24 facts that cannot be debunked about 9/11.

1) Nano Thermite was found in the dust at Ground Zero. Peer reviewed in the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal. ‘Niels Harrit’, ‘Thermite Bentham’, “The great thermate debate” Jon Cole, ‘Iron rich spheres’ Steven Jones, ‘Limited Metallurgical Examination (FEMA C-13, Appendix C-6)’. ‘Nano Tubes’

2) 1700+ Engineers and Architects support a real independent 9/11 investigation. Richard Gage, Founder. ‘Explosive Evidence’, ‘Blueprint for Truth’, ‘AE911’, ‘Toronto Hearings’, ‘Kevin Ryan’.

3) The total collapse of WTC 7 in 6.5 seconds at free fall acceleration (NIST admits 2.25 seconds). Larry Silverstein used the term “Pull it”. Steel framed high rise buildings have NEVER totally collapsed from fire or structural damage. Builidng 7 was not hit by a plane. ‘Building 7’, ‘WTC 7’.

4) Dick Cheney was in command of NORAD on 9/11 while running war games. ‘Stand down order’. “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary?”. Norman Minetta testimony. “Gave order to shootdown Flight 93.”, ‘NORAD Drills’.
5) 6 out of the 10 Commissioners believe the 9/11 Commission report was “Setup to fail” Co-Chairs Hamilton and Kean, “It was a 30 year conspiracy”, “The whitehouse has played cover up”, ‘Max Cleland resigned’, ‘John Farmer’.

6) FBI confiscated 84/85 Videos from the Pentagon. ‘Moussaoui trial’ revealed these videos. Released Pentagon Security Camera (FOIA) does not show a 757 and is clearly Missing a frame. ‘Sheraton Hotel’, “Double tree’, ‘Citgo”.

7) Osama Bin Laden was NOT wanted by the FBI for the 9/11 attacks. “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” CIA created, trained and funded “Al Qaeda/Taliban” during the Mujahideen. OBL was a CIA asset named ‘Tim Osman’. OBL Reported dead in Dec 2001 (FOX).

8)100’s of Firefighters and witness testimony to BOMBS/EXPLOSIONS ignored by the 9/11 Commission Report. 9/11 Commission Report bars 503 1st responder eyewitnesses. “Explosions in the lobby and sub levels”, ‘Firefighter explosions’, ‘Barry Jennings’, ‘William Rodriguez’.

9) 100’s of firefighters and witness testimony to MOLTEN METAL ignored by the Commission report. “Like you’re in a foundry”, “NIST’s John Gross denies the existence of Molten Metal”, ‘Swiss Cheese’, “As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.” Leslie Robertson’.

10) ‘5 Dancing Israeli’s’ arrested in ‘Mossad Truck Bombs’ on 9/11 that stated “We were there to document the event.” ‘Urban Moving Systems’ front company, ‘Dominic Suter’. “$498,750 Business loan (June 2001)”. “Officer DeCarlo’, ‘Art Students’, ‘Israeli Spying’.

11) On September 10th, 2001. Rumsfeld reported $2.3 TRILLION missing from the Pentagon. ‘Dov Zakheim’ Pentagon Comptroller. Former VP of ‘Systems Planning Corporation’ (Flight Termination System). Signatore of PNAC document.

12) 220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials question the official story. ‘9/11 Whistleblowers’, ‘Patriots for 9/11’. ‘Robert Bowman’, ‘Sibel Edmonds’, ‘Albert Stubblebine’, ‘Wesley Clark’, ‘Mark Dayton’, ‘Alan Sabrosky’, ‘Cyntha McKinney’, ‘Jesse Ventura’, ‘Kurt Sonnenfeld’. “patriotsquestion911.com”

13) Towers were built to withstand a Boeing jet(s). “I designed it for a 707 to hit it”, Leslie Robertson, WTC structural engineer. “Could probably sustain multiple impacts of jetliners”, “like a pencil puncturing screen netting” Frank De Martini, deceased Manager of WTC Construction & Project Management. “As far as a plane knocking a building over, that would not happen.” Charlie Thornton, Structural Engineer.

14) History of American False Flag attacks. ‘USS Liberty’, ‘Gulf of Tonkin’, ‘Operation Northwoods’, ‘OKC Bombing (Murrah Building)’, ‘1993 WTC attacks’. ‘Patrick Clawson’. Project for the New American Century (PNAC) needed “a New Pearl Harbor”, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”. 9/11 Achieved those goals.

15) BBC correspondent Jane Standley reported the collapse of WTC 7 (Soloman Brothers building) 20 minutes before it happened. CNN/FOX/MSNBC also had early reports. ‘BBC wtc 7’, ‘Jane Standley’, Ashleigh Banfield’.

16) “Flight 93” debris was spread out over many miles. Cheney admits to giving the order to shootdown 93. “shot down the plane over Pennsylvania” Rumsfeld, “nothing that you could distinguish that a plane had crashed there” ‘Chris Konicki. “Not a drop of blood” Coroner Wallace Miller. “there was no plane.” Mayor Ernie Stull.

17) Bush hesitated for 441 days before starting the 911 Commission. ‘Jersey Girls’. ‘Phil Zelikow’ already wrote the outline before the commission began. Steel shipped over seas. Obstruction of justice. JFK and Pearl Harbor commissions were started within 7 days.

18) The 911 commission was given extremely limited funds. $15 million was given to investigate 9/11. (Over $60 Million was spent investigating Clintons’ affairs with Monica).

19) Bush said he watched the first plane crash into the North tower on TV before entering the classroom. “The TV was obviously on.” Was informed about the second impact while reading ‘My Pet Goat’ to the children. Remained for at least 8 more minutes while America was under “attack”.

20) The PATRIOT ACT was written before 9/11. Signed into law October 26th, 2001.

21) Marvin Bush was director of Stratasec (Securacom, ‘KuAm’) which was in charge of security of the WTC, United Airlines and Dulles International Airport. All three were breached on 9/11. ICTS was another company that provided security at the airports. ‘Wirt Walker’, ‘Ezra Harel’, ‘ICTS”, ‘WTC power downs’.

22) “Who killed John O’Neil?”. Former FBI task force agent investigating Al Qaeda/Bin Laden. Transferred by Kroll Corporation to head the security just before 9/11. John O’Neil died in the Towers. ‘Jerome Hauer’ ‘Jules Kroll’.

23) Insider trading based upon foreknowledge. ‘Put Options.’ Never identified insiders made millions. ‘United and American Airlines’ ‘Raytheon.’

24) At least 7 of the 19 listed hijackers are still alive (BBC). No video footage of 19 hijackers or passengers boarding the 4 planes. Pilots of the 4 planes never squawked the hijacking code. ‘Alive hijackers’, ‘ACARS’, ‘Pilots for 9/11 Truth’.

WTC 7 (The Smoking Gun)

Building 7 was a 47-story skyscraper and was part of the World Trade Center complex. Built in 1984, it would have been the tallest high-rise in 33 states in the United States. It collapsed at 5:20 pm on September 11, 2001 in 6.5 Seconds at free fall acceleration. It was not hit by an airplane and suffered minimal damage compared to other buildings much closer to the Twin Towers.

And finally - Fact - if fire caused WTC 7 to collapse it will be the first ever fire induced collapse of a steel frame high rise to come down by fire EVER.

Yep I'm a conspiracy theorist and proud of it!!

 

[onthebottom]

http://timeline.911memorial.org/#Timeline/2

 

[james t kirk]

In reading all of the posts on there, no-one has really stated the obvious and that is that the WTC collapsed not because of one variable (or issue), but because of several issues that came together in the perfect storm. (Like any catastrophe, there is usually not just one thing.)

1. Incredible structural damage. Even if the buildings had not collapsed (say there had been no fire, or small fires), I don't know if they could have been repaired frankly. The structural damage to the building was immense. Columns were knocked out, floors were ripped apart, when the floors collapsed immediately upon impact, they would have pancaked onto the floors below resulting in those floors being overloaded and huge bending moments induced into the surviving columns.

combined with

2. The effective lengths of the surviving columns would be 4, 5, 6 times as long as they were designed for. Steel columns in any building are laterally braced by the floors framing into them to form a 3D space frame. The impact damage was so great that multiple floors were demolished. Now, not only are the adjacent surviving columns completely overloaded, they are no longer braced. Imagine a long slender piece of steel. It's like a piece of spagetti, but if you brace it every 12' feet in both directions, it's strong. The force of the impact of the jet aircraft removed that bracing and now you have very long slender columns holding up an immense loading.

combined with

3. Heat from the jet fuel burning which weakens the steel. It doesn't have to be molten to lose strength, it just has to be hot. Same with cold. Steel girders on bridges need to be sufficiently "tough" to resist the cold and not become brittle. Believe it or not, steel can become brittle and crack at -20 C. Heat is the same way. It doesn't take a lot of heat to decrease the strength of steel.

combined with

4. Wind. Wind loads that day would have been like any day. Enormous. On any given day, I'm sure that the WTC would sway in the wind a foot or more. Ever stood out on the roof of a high building? I have. Even on a calm day, the wind is huge. In addition to the never ending wind loads, wind will also fan the fires helping them burn even more and hotter. The wind loads would place both compression and tensile loads on the building. Those lateral wind forces must be resisted by the steel frame of the building. The same steel frame that has been massively compromised.

combined with

5. The loss of the fireproofing. The columns and floor joists that made up the WTC would have been sprayed with fireproofing insulation so that in the even of a fire, they would be protected from the fire. All of this would have been blown off in the critical areas surrounding the impact zone. The result would be obvious. The steel is exposed to the fire and heat and it will lose its strength.


When you add all of the above up, it's a MIRACLE the building stood as long as it did.

Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

 

[basketcase]

...

basketcase I would like to see that properties chart. There is a huge difference between malleability and tensile strength....

I believe this is the one I read previously.
http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1345&context=engpapers

 

[italianguy74]

If there was a thermal image of the wtc anybody would be able to see the majority or the structure was cool. The sprinklers were working around the damage area, that kept the fire from spreading outside the impact zones. An aluminum aircraft hitting a36 steel beams would cause damage with the wings and engines but the fuselage would get shredded like cheese through a grater. You can see molten iron...not steel or aluminum, it was tested to be molten iron spilling out the side of the building and after the collapse can be seen in massive amounts in the wreckage.

I find it inconceivable that a witnesses report of a car accident, a robbery, a murder are valid statements but witnesses of the wtc events are just conspiracy nuts.

 

[james t kirk]

If there was a thermal image of the wtc anybody would be able to see the majority or the structure was cool. The sprinklers were working around the damage area, that kept the fire from spreading outside the impact zones. An aluminum aircraft hitting a36 steel beams would cause damage with the wings and engines but the fuselage would get shredded like cheese through a grater. You can see molten iron...not steel or aluminum, it was tested to be molten iron spilling out the side of the building and after the collapse can be seen in massive amounts in the wreckage.

I find it inconceivable that a witnesses report of a car accident, a robbery, a murder are valid statements but witnesses of the wtc events are just conspiracy nuts.

Witnesses are often wrong. That's been proven in court.

Those firefighters (I didn't even bother to click on the link) are not going to know shit other than there was a fire.

Question:

How do you know that the sprinklers were working in the impact area? Tell me how if several floor were ripped into that the sprinklers would have survived intact? The sprinklers in that building would have been a wet system that were fed from water tanks on the roof or from various mechanical floors (not the ground). Each sprinkler would have a seal in the head which would melt in the event of a fire allowing the water to flow out of the individual head. Unlike Hollywood, Sprinklers in a building do not turn on in a group in the event of a fire. They come on individually. You have either wet systems (there is always water in the system) or dry systems (there is air in the pipes that keeps the pipes dry. If there is a fire, the sprinkler heads where the fire are open from the heat, the air flows out and replaced with water and subsequently, the water flows out.)

In either case, once one pipe in any one zone is ripped out, either the supply pipe, or the branch pipe, that entire zone would become useless as the water would just flood out from the rupture in the pipe rendering the entire zone completely ineffective. There is no way in hell the sprinkler system in the WTC functioned in the impact areas.

Next, you say,

You can see molten iron...not steel or aluminum, it was tested to be molten iron spilling out the side of the building and after the collapse can be seen in massive amounts in the wreckage.

What the fuck are you talking about?

1. You do realize that steel is iron with a bit of carbon added to it right?

2. "tested to be molten iron" - tested how? by who? and again, steel is made from iron. They sure as hell didn't use cast iron in the construction of the building, or any building for that matter.

3. Of course there is massive amounts of iron in the wreckage. The steel columns are made from iron.

 

[fuji]

If there was a thermal image of the wtc anybody would be able to see the majority or the structure was cool. The sprinklers were working around the damage area, that kept the fire from spreading outside the impact zones. An aluminum aircraft hitting a36 steel beams would cause damage with the wings and engines but the fuselage would get shredded like cheese through a grater. You can see molten iron...not steel or aluminum, it was tested to be molten iron spilling out the side of the building and after the collapse can be seen in massive amounts in the wreckage.

I find it inconceivable that a witnesses report of a car accident, a robbery, a murder are valid statements but witnesses of the wtc events are just conspiracy nuts.

You have a very limited understanding and should not embarrass yourself through further posts.

As for molten iron, the collapse of the building itself generated a tremendous amount of energy, which would have melted anything.

 

[fuji]

Here's a guy who witnessed the wreckage of the plane and saw the fires:

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/10/the-sept-11-saviour-and-the-saved.html

“I was standing with the phone in my hand, looking towards the Statue of Liberty and what caught my eyes was this plane,” he says. “Small at first and, in split seconds, it was getting larger and larger and larger. You don’t know what to think of, you’re kind of mesmerized.

“I wasn’t certain what was happening. All I remember is this revving sound this plane is making as it’s coming closer towards me and the building. I can still see the U on the plane. United Airlines. It’s getting bigger and bigger.

“All I remember doing is dropping the phone and screaming. All I said was, ‘Lord, I can’t do this. You take over.’ And I dove under the desk. The young lady from Chicago heard the scream and she thought the worst happened. With the most thunderous sound the plane crashed into the building.”

The walls and furniture were mangled and the ceiling collapsed, making it impossible to stand. There were cables and wires everywhere. Praimnath says his ears popped and he was temporarily deafened by the sound at impact.

“The only desk that stood firm was the desk I’m hiding under,” says Praimnath, who expected the ceiling to collapse further.

“All around me, where the plane crashed, is in flames. A large part of the plane that looked like part of the wing was stuck in the office doorway about 20 feet away from where I was.”

I guess he must be part is the conspiracy too?

 

[FAST]

You have a very limited understanding and should not embarrass yourself through further posts.

As for molten iron, the collapse of the building itself generated a tremendous amount of energy, which would have melted anything.

A little pot and kettle thing going on here.

FAST

 

[Sexy_Dave]

If there was a thermal image of the wtc anybody would be able to see the majority or the structure was cool. The sprinklers were working around the damage area, that kept the fire from spreading outside the impact zones. An aluminum aircraft hitting a36 steel beams would cause damage with the wings and engines but the fuselage would get shredded like cheese through a grater. You can see molten iron...not steel or aluminum, it was tested to be molten iron spilling out the side of the building and after the collapse can be seen in massive amounts in the wreckage.

I find it inconceivable that a witnesses report of a car accident, a robbery, a murder are valid statements but witnesses of the wtc events are just conspiracy nuts.

I suggest you look into the work of Elizabeth Loftus et al.

 

[basketcase]

Lets talk facts! ...

Sure, when are you going to start posting some?


BTW. You posted it in the other thread under your other handle - in both cases not bothering to include a source for the C&P ramblings.

 

[basketcase]

...
2. "tested to be molten iron" - tested how? ....

I got a good laugh from that one too.

Only way that they could have tested if the iron was molten would be to measure the temperature while it was molten. I have a feeling that people had more important things to do as the buildings were collapsing.

 

[basketcase]

..., the collapse of the building itself generated a tremendous amount of energy,....

To be specific, the energy released by the collapse was not that much less than the first atomic bombs. That much material suspended that high above the ground had enormous gravitational energy.

 

[FAST]

To be specific, the energy released by the collapse was not that much less than the first atomic bombs. That much material suspended that high above the ground had enormous gravitational energy.

Come on basketcase, are you stating that if one of the towers was controlled collapsed, without the burning of jet fuel, the steel in the building would have melted,...???

And no, I am not a denier on this subject.

Just find this hard to believe this has EVER been close to happening.

FAST

 

[SuperCharge]

Sure, when are you going to start posting some?


BTW. You posted it in the other thread under your other handle - in both cases not bothering to include a source for the C&P ramblings.

Basketcase I have no other handle and you can take that as fact. Talk about fucking conspiracy theories!

 

[italianguy74]

Here's a guy who witnessed the wreckage of the plane and saw the fires:

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/10/the-sept-11-saviour-and-the-saved.html

“I was standing with the phone in my hand, looking towards the Statue of Liberty and what caught my eyes was this plane,” he says. “Small at first and, in split seconds, it was getting larger and larger and larger. You don’t know what to think of, you’re kind of mesmerized.

“I wasn’t certain what was happening. All I remember is this revving sound this plane is making as it’s coming closer towards me and the building. I can still see the U on the plane. United Airlines. It’s getting bigger and bigger.

“All I remember doing is dropping the phone and screaming. All I said was, ‘Lord, I can’t do this. You take over.’ And I dove under the desk. The young lady from Chicago heard the scream and she thought the worst happened. With the most thunderous sound the plane crashed into the building.”

The walls and furniture were mangled and the ceiling collapsed, making it impossible to stand. There were cables and wires everywhere. Praimnath says his ears popped and he was temporarily deafened by the sound at impact.

“The only desk that stood firm was the desk I’m hiding under,” says Praimnath, who expected the ceiling to collapse further.

“All around me, where the plane crashed, is in flames. A large part of the plane that looked like part of the wing was stuck in the office doorway about 20 feet away from where I was.”

I guess he must be part is the conspiracy too?

I don't know what point you are trying to make with this story. Are you trying to make it clear the buildings were hit by planes? Thanks Sherlock you have debunked the "it was Santas sleigh" conspiracy.

 

[Jubee]

Sometimes I forget how many assholes there are in any given population - this is a depressing reminder. I lost several neighbors and work friends that day.

May I say to all you Truthers - Fuck You.

Suck it up buttercup, a lot of the "Truthers" have been affected a lot more than you. - ie - FAMILY.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html

 

[fuji]

Come on basketcase, are you stating that if one of the towers was controlled collapsed, without the burning of jet fuel, the steel in the building would have melted,...???

And no, I am not a denier on this subject.

Just find this hard to believe this has EVER been close to happening.

FAST

The point is that melted iron is expected when a building like that comes down, and therefore isn't evidence of any conspiracy.

You can calculate how much energy was released by the that much mass falling that far and work out with highschool physics that the resulting heat would be enough to melt any metal known to man.

 

[fuji]

I don't know what point you are trying to make with this story. Are you trying to make it clear the buildings were hit by planes? Thanks Sherlock you have debunked the "it was Santas sleigh" conspiracy.

So let's review your cockamamie conspiracy. The planes hit at an angle and took out several floors, ripping electrical systems to shreds, causing ceilings and floors to collapse, and lighting everything on fire. The post I quoted gives us an eye witness account of the devastation on the impact floors.

Meanwhile you think those same floors (which the pilots expertly targeted?) were jam packed with sophisticated explosives which somehow didn't immediately explode when doused in jet fuel and set on fire?

There's a hole in your conspiracy theory the size of a jet airplane.

And yes, we can clearly see from all the video that the buildings collapsed from the impact floors. Not above (which begins falling intact) and not below (which remains motionless until crushed by the falling mass).

And this, you think, was the PLAN: expertly fly a plane into the exact floors where there are explosives, douse the explosives in jet fuel and light them on fire, and then detonate in a controlled way an hour later. And pull this off TWICE, once in each tower.

That is what you think happened???????

You like to point out what you think are holes in the official story while ignoring the ludicrous impossibility of your alternative "theory".