Refusing CPR

[dtjohnst]

meh ... doesn't matter really. We all know she said make sure the heart is stopped. Hopefully we all know now that is bullshit ... we start CPR we don't wait around for the heart to stop. Just go take a course at your local red cross, and please don't discourage CPR. It saves lives.

In the army, I saw medics do CPR on guys who were even breathing to promote recovery. Trained pros, flawless technique...not for amateurs, but definitely proof you can do CPR on a beating heart.

And I certainly don't discourage it! I say do it anytime you find a non-responsive, unbreathing person regardless of anything else. And do it immediately after calling help, don't wait for anything.

My point is simply that the subject of this thread is not, "Will she admit she was wrong," or, "Where did I say pulse?" So trying to get her to admit she's wrong, or demanding someone post where she said "pulse" isn't helping anything. I she was still saying, "Check for pulse first," then fine. Correct her. But she isn't. So it's cleared up. Lets move on.

 

[Aardvark154]

We all know she said make sure the heart is stopped. Hopefully we all know now that is bullshit ... we start CPR we don't wait around for the heart to stop. Just go take a course at your local red cross, and please don't discourage CPR. It saves lives.

OK take a course! As for the rest it isn't what I was taught, but take a CPR - AED COURSE.

Oh, check for Dog Tags/medical necklace or a medical bracelet many people with DNR's have such that tell you that - heed them it takes less than two seconds.

 

[smiley1437]

Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses. He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are glazed. The other guy whips out his phone and calls the emergency services. He gasps, "My friend is dead! What can I do?" The operator says "Calm down. I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead."

There is a silence, then a gun shot is heard. Back on the phone, the guy says "OK, now what?"

 

[Aardvark154]

^ At least someone made me laugh.

 

[fuji]

You guys have said the same thing for several posts now. One of you is going to have to be the adult and just realize you're going in circles and stop.

I think the technical term for those circles is "pirouette". I enjoy the ballet and Mrs C has been putting on an dance production called "be very certain the heart has stopped".

 

[mrsCALoki]

meh ... doesn't matter really. We all know she said make sure the heart is stopped. Hopefully we all know now that is bullshit ... we start CPR we don't wait around for the heart to stop. Just go take a course at your local red cross, and please don't discourage CPR. It saves lives.

Ok. You are right. I should have said "If you are with someone who wants to do it to a breathing subject, or someone who is responsive, try to distract her from killing the person by using CPR on the unstopped heart"

There ya go!

 

[mrsCALoki]

Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses. He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are glazed. The other guy whips out his phone and calls the emergency services. He gasps, "My friend is dead! What can I do?" The operator says "Calm down. I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead."

There is a silence, then a gun shot is heard. Back on the phone, the guy says "OK, now what?"

Smiley made me smile as well. Thank you

 

[mrsCALoki]

In the army, I saw medics do CPR on guys who were even breathing to promote recovery. Trained pros, flawless technique...not for amateurs, but definitely proof you can do CPR on a beating heart.

Compression CPR? I know ventilation has been used since long long ago. And artificial respiration is and was a standard for a long time. Many people trained to use them even keep bags handy. I just never heard of a general protocol for deliberately doing it on a breathing subject. Of course if you tell me you saw them doing compression CPR I will looked shocked but believe you. You seem honest <<<<<=== not being sarcastic.

 

[fuji]

Everyone, absolutely everyone, should take a CPR course.

People imagine being the hero performing CPR on a stranger who collapses on the street but the overwhelming odds are that if you ever have to perform CPR it will be on someone you love.

Think about that, then take the course.

 

[PowerDrill]

The truth is that with complete flatlining, no heart activity at all, even in a hospital, the chance of surviving with no neurological effects is less than 2%. On the street it's less than 1%. So we're talking about a different of about 1% between hospital staff conducting CPR and strangers on the street. For me, that makes strangers on the street doing CPR extremely effective and worthwhile. They're almost as good as trained hospital staff!!!

I think the better conclusion from those numbers is that CPR should be avoided--those numbers are absolutely terrible. You could reword a key statement above to "strangers on the street are almost as BAD as trained hospital staff!!!" There are worse things than death. I'll repeat something I stated above. Overall success rate of CPR 8%. 3% total recovery. 3% vegetative state for rest of their lives. The remaining 2% somewhere in between. Upwards of 80% of American Medical doctors surveyed indicated they would not wish CPR performed on them. With those numbers in mind, how many people would really chose to have this performed on them?

 

[pointz]

meh ... doesn't matter really. We all know she said make sure the heart is stopped. Hopefully we all know now that is bullshit ... we start CPR we don't wait around for the heart to stop. Just go take a course at your local red cross, and please don't discourage CPR. It saves lives.

There's no reliable way to determine if the heart had stopped without proper equipment. That's why you only check for absence of breathing before starting CPR. It does save lives and should not be discouraged.

 

[mrsCALoki]

There's no reliable way to determine if the heart had stopped without proper equipment. That's why you only check for absence of breathing before starting CPR. It does save lives and should not be discouraged.

100%

Thank god someone gets it.

 

[PowerDrill]

There's no reliable way to determine if the heart had stopped without proper equipment. That's why you only check for absence of breathing before starting CPR. It does save lives and should not be discouraged.

Just how many people want to live a life in a vegetative state? Saving lives is only one aspect of the data.

 

[pointz]

Just how many people want to live a life in a vegetative state? Saving lives is only one aspect of the data.

That would be up to their next of kin to decide after the fact wouldn't it? If you can help, you should. You do need to say that you're going to do CPR before you start even if they can't hear you to cover yourself from the legal standpoint.

 

[pointz]

100%

Thank god someone gets it.

Isn't that contrary to your previous statement of checking the pulse?

 

[simon482]

Isn't that contrary to your previous statement of checking the pulse?

that doesn't matter. if you take both sides of the argument you are always right.

 

[Aardvark154]

Just how many people want to live a life in a vegetative state? Saving lives is only one aspect of the data.

That is a significant part of what I've posted about in this thread. Talk such things over with your family. If you don't want extraordinary measures taken have a DNR order (advance medical directive) on file in all the places you believe it will be needed. Further you can get a medic alert bracelet or dog tag which clearly states DNR.

 

[SchlongConery]

Without wading through this thread again, I recently was speaking with an EMT who said that for laymen, that artificial respiration were no longer recommended. That chest compressions alone would create sufficient air exchange to oxygenate the blood.

I've not kept my CPR training up to date in the past 5 years but from my earliest days as a teenager in swimming classes, and in advanced first aid and scuba rescue diver courses since, the rescue breathing/AR was integral.

I know that if it were me in a VSA situation, I would indeed continue with the rescue breathing/chest compression protocol.

What is the current situation?

 

[pointz]

Without wading through this thread again, I recently was speaking with an EMT who said that for laymen, that artificial respiration were no longer recommended. That chest compressions alone would create sufficient air exchange to oxygenate the blood.

I've not kept my CPR training up to date in the past 5 years but from my earliest days as a teenager in swimming classes, and in advanced first aid and scuba rescue diver courses since, the rescue breathing/AR was integral.

I know that if it were me in a VSA situation, I would indeed continue with the rescue breathing/chest compression protocol.

What is the current situation?

They did reduce the ratio of chest compressions to breath. You are correct, chest compressions are more important.

 

[dtjohnst]

I think the better conclusion from those numbers is that CPR should be avoided--those numbers are absolutely terrible. You could reword a key statement above to "strangers on the street are almost as BAD as trained hospital staff!!!" There are worse things than death. I'll repeat something I stated above. Overall success rate of CPR 8%. 3% total recovery. 3% vegetative state for rest of their lives. The remaining 2% somewhere in between. Upwards of 80% of American Medical doctors surveyed indicated they would not wish CPR performed on them. With those numbers in mind, how many people would really chose to have this performed on them?

Well... With those numbers, I'd say about 20% of doctors would. And I would.