Raccoon attack

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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Im glad you have some empathy for an struggling animal. Have you seen insects struggle? Have you heard them? Yes they scream too, you just cant hear it, if you could maybe you'ld have some empathy for insects too. Have you seen the slaugher of a cow? Do you know what sounds it makes?

Now how about having some empathy for a human and what he is going through and the degree of frustration that brings on a rage against the raccoons.
If you think for a moment that the animal has more rights than the man you are part of the wrong species.

Lastly, this seems to be the only section that is relevant:

445.1 (1) Every one commits an offence who
(a) wilfully causes or, being the owner, wilfully permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or a bird;

It was necessary to protect his property and his garden. No other measures were at hand, or are available from the city.

Now don't get confused here:

1) no one is saying go around smacking animals with your shovel, but there must be a viable alternative without a cost burden. The city falls short here.

2) Just because there is a law, doesn't mean the law is right or just, often many laws are short sighted and too open-ended missing the original intent and purpose of the law.

3) Have we really lost "the right of enjoyment of property" because we were all asleep and our government f* us up the ass?
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3229531
Now, NP you being silly. I've seen celery react when you cut it, an experiment was done at university and the reaction was quite obvious. Do we band the cultivation of celery or all there veggies. have you heard or seen the sound that insects make when they are killed? Is it any different than their normal array of sounds?

There are many ways of protecting his property other than waking them with a shovel. One effective suggestion was spreading cayenne pepper. I know that it works really well on big wild bears, better than bear bell bells and bangers so it would be very effective scattered around the garden
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,356
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Im glad you have some empathy for an struggling animal. Have you seen insects struggle? Have you heard them? Yes they scream too, you just cant hear it, if you could maybe you'ld have some empathy for insects too. Have you seen the slaugher of a cow? Do you know what sounds it makes?

Now how about having some empathy for a human and what he is going through and the degree of frustration that brings on a rage against the raccoons.
If you think for a moment that the animal has more rights than the man you are part of the wrong species.

Lastly, this seems to be the only section that is relevant:

445.1 (1) Every one commits an offence who
(a) wilfully causes or, being the owner, wilfully permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or a bird;

It was necessary to protect his property and his garden. No other measures were at hand, or are available from the city.

Now don't get confused here:

1) no one is saying go around smacking animals with your shovel, but there must be a viable alternative without a cost burden. The city falls short here.

2) Just because there is a law, doesn't mean the law is right or just, often many laws are short sighted and too open-ended missing the original intent and purpose of the law.

3) Have we really lost "the right of enjoyment of property" because we were all asleep and our government f* us up the ass?
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3229531


I hear ya but on another note, us Canadians do not have a private property right enshrined in the Constitution/Charter of Rights.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
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When you say "baby" without the word "raccoon" after it, one would tend to think you are referring to a human baby. Thank you for clarifying that you meant "baby raccoon" and therefore adding absolutely nothing to this dialog other than stating the obvious. Yes... it has been established that he beat a baby raccoon with a shovel.
Human or not, I hardly think that a baby raccoon would provoke a sane man to defend himself or attack it with a shovel.
 

GG2

Mr. Debonair
Apr 8, 2011
3,183
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Question your own sanity. There is no evidence suggesting Dong is insane, a psycho, or anything other derogatory term you wish to use. When I call people fucking idiots who repeat the mantra that he's a psycho, it's considered unbecoming of civil discourse, yet it's ok to repeatedly cast Dong as a psychopath. You might have a point if he was caught randomly attacking animals in public.

"Adding fuel to the debate was Vince De Masi, an Etobicoke resident whose home suffered serious damage from raccoons. He said he has spent about $4,400 on traps alone. And once the raccoons were caught and released, they made their way back to his home." http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1002853--small-but-feisty-rally-tackles-raccoon-issues

Give me a choice between paying a thousand dollars and killing a raccoon, I'll kill the raccoon.

That's for the numbskulls who say "I've never had a problem with raccoons before so they're all good." If a raccoon attacked your child or pet or it's damage was costing you hundreds of dollars you'd do a 180 and be up in arms over night about your indifference to raccoons.

Anti-raccoon rally held in Toronto
"A handful of Toronto residents gathered Saturday afternoon in support of Dong Nguyen, 53, a west-end homeowner accused of using a shovel to attack a family of raccoons in his backyard near Bloor Street West and Lansdowne Avenue."
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/135068--anti-raccoon-rally-held-in-toronto

"Thuy Nguyen, a settlement worker at the Vietnamese Women’s Association of Toronto who is not related to the man arrested Wednesday, used cultural relativism as one possible explanation for the accused’s approach to the raccoons earlier this week.
“Wildlife is not respected in Vietnam; people kill them, hunt them, sometimes even eat them,” she said. “Obviously, we don’t have raccoons in Vietnam, but if someone there was beating a wild animal, this would not be a big issue. No.” http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/06/04/this-weeks-raccoon-attack-lays-bare-cultural-gap/

Clearly Vietnam is a nation of psychopaths.

These and a mountain of other online articles give me hope that sanity and logic will prevail. Fortunately, there are more objective Canadians than I thought. You're all guilty but most of you hypocrites won't learn anything.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Human or not, I hardly think that a baby raccoon would provoke a sane man to defend himself or attack it with a shovel.
Which is why the guy was hauled off in cuffs. Nothing to do with particular animals, or how to control or not control them. Everything to do with ho we expect people to behave in the community.
 

GG2

Mr. Debonair
Apr 8, 2011
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Which is why the guy was hauled off in cuffs. Nothing to do with particular animals, or how to control or not cotrol them. Everything to do with ho we expect people to behave in the community.
It has everything to do with particular animals and how to control them. We'll never see you up in arms over poisoning rats and the excruciating pain they and their little rat babies suffer before dying. Wisdom is supposed to come with age. You're old but you aren't wise.
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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Question your own sanity.
Well I didn't clinically diagnose him as a psychopath or insane, just speaking in lay terms (as you should know). Still, I think my statement is more sane than his unlawful acts. He clearly lost control of the situation and didn't know how to handle it himself. He was too cheap to call a pest control company, which would've handled the situation more professionally and without a shovel. So who are you calling a fucking idiot GG?
 

gcostanza

Well-known member
Jul 24, 2010
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GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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Clearly Vietnam is a nation of psychopaths.
'Insane' as in 'not in control'. Nobody is accusing him of being an axe-murderer.

So are you also suggesting that the laws of Vietnam or any other country that doesn't protect wildlife should apply to Canada?

The 'cultural relativism' you quote in that article may be a mitigating circumstance in his defence, but that's about it.


P.S. When I was young and didn't know better, I might have done the same thing (I still own my pellet rifle), but it's wrong.
 

GG2

Mr. Debonair
Apr 8, 2011
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You may not be equating him to an axe murderer but others are, not only in this thread but some protestors who wore signs saying that human cruelty begins with animal cruelty.

The cultural relativism quote is important because it sheds light on the hypocrisy of our own culture. Kill rats? Absolutely! Kill mice? Yes do it (unless they're the ones I want as pets). Kill raccoons? You're a psycho! I don't have any particular issue with what he did. It's cruel and unfortunate but it's not any more horrific than what we do to other animals regularly. There are humans and non-human animals. That's where I draw my line.

Dong's reaction results from frustration. Cages, cayenne peppers, lights on lights off, time, hundreds of dollars later. The raccoons come back. Killing them is an obvious solution.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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You may not be equating him to an axe murderer but others are, not only in this thread but some protestors who wore signs saying that human cruelty begins with animal cruelty.

The cultural relativism quote is important because it sheds light on the hypocrisy of our own culture. Kill rats? Absolutely! Kill mice? Yes do it (unless they're the ones I want as pets). Kill raccoons? You're a psycho! I don't have any particular issue with what he did. It's cruel and unfortunate but it's not any more horrific than what we do to other animals regularly. There are humans and non-human animals. That's where I draw my line.

Dong's reaction results from frustration. Cages, cayenne peppers, lights on lights off, time, hundreds of dollars later. The raccoons come back. Killing them is an obvious solution.
Believe me when I say the same raccoons won't come anywhere near the garden after they get a whiff of cayenne. They will move on.
 

Worf

Active member
Sep 26, 2001
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In a house somewhere
Part of the problem is that we 'city' folk believe we are too civilized to kill anything.

I won't be butchering a raccoon, but at the same time we all have a point where we will break. The raccoon got under this man's skin, and he killed it with a shovel. But it is still a raccoon and he does not deserve the treatment he got. We all say we won't kill, but are you sure? If someone came into your house, raped your daughter, killed your wife/husband, and you have a slight opportunity to kill the attacker, would you? I would. No doubt. I might even torture the SOB. Does that now make me a mass murderer as these bleeding hearts suggest?

Western society has lost track of the rights of humans vs animals. Animals are 'tortured' daily in the testing of cosmetics, skin products, etc. They are killed for the leather we wear on our feet. The crocodile skin bags (??), the wallets, purses, etc, made from animals. Are any of these animals eaten? Some are, some aren't. But we actually see one of them getting killed (or hear about it, since most, if not all, of us weren't there) and oh my, somebody put a stop to this barbarism. We kill people right and centre as a 'civilized' society, but no - don't kill those pests! They are way too cute.

My rights as a person supercede those of an animal, and I WILL kill to protect myself and my family. It will not be easy, and I have never killed before, but if threatened, I will. So, before we say that we can't bear to kill anything, we should seriously think about it. If (or is it when?) Toronto gets so many rats, mice, raccoons, bears, roaches, and other vermin in every corner, garbage can, restaurant and house, will the bleeding hearts be defending the rights of the animals, or start whacking them themselves??
 

KBear

Supporting Member
Aug 17, 2001
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west end
www.gtagirls.com
Well I didn't clinically diagnose him as a psychopath or insane, just speaking in lay terms (as you should know). Still, I think my statement is more sane than his unlawful acts. He clearly lost control of the situation and didn't know how to handle it himself. He was too cheap to call a pest control company, which would've handled the situation more professionally and without a shovel. So who are you calling a fucking idiot GG?
In the Star article, it says it cost something like $1,000 - $4,000 to get rid of the raccoons. I would really like to know if you would spend $4,000 to get ride of the raccoon, or if you would kill them? How many times would you spend the $1,000 per raccoon to get rid of it before you cracked and picked up a shovel? What would you do in this guys place with this ongoing problem?

You say he was too cheap, but not everyone has extra thousands kicking around to spend. Many people have a hard time meeting rent or mortgage payments. We don’t know the guys financial situation.

The mistake the guy made was not thinking forward, and doing what he had to do quickly and quietly. He may have lived in the city all his life, and this is the first time he has had to kill something.

edit: whops from the article the cost is $375 - $1,000 to remove raccoons.
 
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Rockslinger

Banned
Apr 24, 2005
32,774
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In the Star article, it says it cost something like $1,000 - $4,000 to get rid of the raccoons.
The pro-raccoon lobby should walk the talk and shell out their own money to get rid of raccoons. You tell someone how he should treat raccoons on his own property then you should be willing to foot the cost. Talk is cheap.
BTW: Did you know that Mr. Facebook killed a goat with his own bare hands? One should never kill animals for pleasure but it is one of the options to protect your own property and family or for food.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
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Part of the problem is that we 'city' folk believe we are too civilized to kill anything.

I won't be butchering a raccoon, but at the same time we all have a point where we will break. The raccoon got under this man's skin, and he killed it with a shovel. But it is still a raccoon and he does not deserve the treatment he got. We all say we won't kill, but are you sure? If someone came into your house, raped your daughter, killed your wife/husband, and you have a slight opportunity to kill the attacker, would you? I would. No doubt. I might even torture the SOB. Does that now make me a mass murderer as these bleeding hearts suggest?

Western society has lost track of the rights of humans vs animals. Animals are 'tortured' daily in the testing of cosmetics, skin products, etc. They are killed for the leather we wear on our feet. The crocodile skin bags (??), the wallets, purses, etc, made from animals. Are any of these animals eaten? Some are, some aren't. But we actually see one of them getting killed (or hear about it, since most, if not all, of us weren't there) and oh my, somebody put a stop to this barbarism. We kill people right and centre as a 'civilized' society, but no - don't kill those pests! They are way too cute.

My rights as a person supercede those of an animal, and I WILL kill to protect myself and my family. It will not be easy, and I have never killed before, but if threatened, I will. So, before we say that we can't bear to kill anything, we should seriously think about it. If (or is it when?) Toronto gets so many rats, mice, raccoons, bears, roaches, and other vermin in every corner, garbage can, restaurant and house, will the bleeding hearts be defending the rights of the animals, or start whacking them themselves??
No one in any of these post have said they wouldn't kill and drawing a comparison between a pesky raccoon and a burglar who rapes your daughter is just ludicrous. I try not to clog up my mind with those things and will deal with it when it happens.

As for the question of it being a problem of us city folk, there seems to be a great may hunters and fisherman among those city folk, so it hard to see your point. The question of cosmetics is legit but when you try and draw a similar comparison with killing food for consumption it goes off track.

I'm not quite sure what side of the animal rights question you're on, but it really goes off line from the OP. this guy went off on a family of raccoons when he did really need to and will be 'fined' for his action. As someone posted I wonder how he handles stress in his family.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
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The pro-raccoon lobby should walk the talk and shell out their own money to get rid of raccoons. You tell someone how he should treat raccoons on his own property then you should be willing to foot the cost. Talk is cheap.
BTW: Did you know that Mr. Facebook killed a goat with his own bare hands? One should never kill animals for pleasure but it is one of the options to protect your own property and family or for food.
I'm sure I'd like to see how this operation rings up that kind of expenses. Two workers maybe spending 2 hours capturing the Raccoons and driving it a 100 km north doesn't cost $1000-$4000; 5 hours + gas. If so, I'm in the wrong line of work.
 
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