Question for TERB architect and engineers

Smallcock

Active member
Jun 5, 2009
13,647
21
38
I've seen photos of sinkholes swallowing houses, roads, cars and even read about one swallowing a man. Sinkholes are unpredictable because they're undetectable, right?

So what's to stop a sinkhole from occurring beneath a large condo building in Toronto, causing it to suddenly collapse and killing thousands of Torontonians inside?

I live in a condo and think about this all the time.
 
Good thought provoking question! While waiting for the experts to chime in I think their was a case of a sinkhole affecting a condo in Richmond Hill in the late 90's. I don't think anyone was hurt but I do remember that at one point they were considering to knock it down. The engineering team came up with a way to save the condo and as far as I know their's been no issue since.
 
The geology of the GTA is not susceptible to large scale sinkholes.
 
Sinkholes are the result of underwater river flows I think and Toronto definitely does have them. I suspect it is the ground they flow through IE limestone, sandstone, granite, etc that would allow for a sinkhole and that changes throughout the GTA.

So, my amateur thought is if there is an underground river that goes through porous rock then you have a potential sinkhole. Also, I would think an underground river can tunnel only through porous rock.



Oh yeah, buildings have a foundation of cement pillars that go all the way to the hard rock, in the GTA I am guessing that means all the way to the Canadian shield which is part of the earth's original mantle and as hard as can be as it is made of lava so a sinkhole aint gonna collapse it. Now that I think about it, I doubt they would build a large building over a underground river


Does someone want to look it up?
 
Sink holes typically require two things.

1. Water

2. The water being able to carry away the soil, or the water drains or evapourates.

Broken sewers typically create sink holes in this part of the world.


Say you have a storm sewer made of concrete pipe. The concrete pipe, for whatever reason breaks. But no-one knows. In a rain even, water flows in the sewer and when it hits the break it ebbs out into the surrounding soil. (Soil being the generic name, no necessarily garden soil or top soil. )

As the flowing water takes with it the soil (or backfill around the pipe) and carries it downstream in the pipe you have a sink hole situation. (I've actually seen mini sink holes in houses. One house I was working on had a very large void under the basement floor. What had happened was that the clay sanitary drain broke and allowed the sewage to leak out. Every time someone flushed the john or used water, the sewage would seep into the soil and then suck it away as the water ebbed away into the sanitary line. (The homeowner had discovered the void under the floor when a small section of basement floor gave way. It was revealed to be pretty large actually. Where the main cast iron stack elbowed just under the basement floor and transitioned to vitreous clay pipe, the elbow had broken. Probably took years, but if unchecked, it could have undermined the foundations. But I digress.)

Over time, a void opens up and with time, it grows until finally, whatever is above is undermined.

You can have saturated soil, it's not a problem. There is nothing unusual about that. It only becomes a problem when there is a means by which the water is removed and soil can be carried away.
 
The geology of the GTA is not susceptible to large scale sinkholes.


I should have clarified to say that the GTA is not susceptible to natural large-scale/condo-swallowing sinkholes. Failed water mains or sewers can wash out or destabilize the soil structure. Especially silty till.
 
I should have clarified to say that the GTA is not susceptible to natural large-scale/condo-swallowing sinkholes. Failed water mains or sewers can wash out or destabilize the soil structure. Especially silty till.

Thx for looking up the Canadian Shield and I agree about water main breakage. No way can it collapse a building

BTW, the Great Lakes and all our prime agricultural land is due to glaciers grinding up rock
 
I've seen photos of sinkholes swallowing houses, roads, cars and even read about one swallowing a man. Sinkholes are unpredictable because they're undetectable, right?

So what's to stop a sinkhole from occurring beneath a large condo building in Toronto, causing it to suddenly collapse and killing thousands of Torontonians inside?

I live in a condo and think about this all the time.

You can sleep safely. Tall buildings are anchored to the bedrock, so a natural or man made sinkhole may develop beside the building, the under the building sinkhole is unlikely and in most cases impossible to develop. The adjacent sinkhole will not compromise the vertical stability either. That's why we excavate so deep.
 
OMG thanks so much to all of you. My concerns have been allayed!
 
To get back to basics; Sinkholes are only undetectable because no one thinks to do any detecting. As the water carries away the sub-soil and the supporting crust thins and the building materials on it are stressed, there's all sorts of noises produced. But who bothers to listen and put together the big picture? Not to mention we don't even have a word for the sound-version of a 'picture'.

And the fifteen drivers that drove safely over the imminent hole before it opened that morning likely detected an unusual valley in the asphalt and may even have registered that it wasn't there yesterday morning, but who reports new 'dips' to the City, let alone actual pot-holes? Not me.

But they are detectable.
 
sink holes are formed when everyone in a condo building are fucking at the same time. The vibration creates air pockets in the soil

giphy.gif