Question about motor oil
- Thread starter Meaculpa
- Start date
Thanks for the input guys. Quick questions also:
1) Does anyone believe (from experience) that synthetic 5w20 oil actually prolongs
the engine life?
2) What is more cost effective; one synthetic oil change every 10,000 KMs or
two normal oil changes (once every 5,000 KM), using 5w20?
1) Does anyone believe (from experience) that synthetic 5w20 oil actually prolongs
the engine life?
2) What is more cost effective; one synthetic oil change every 10,000 KMs or
two normal oil changes (once every 5,000 KM), using 5w20?
I believe that synthetic oil prolong engine life as some study says regular oil just for basic protection while synthetic oil enhance engine performance and power, ensure engine is protected from wear and deposit build up, and good cold start and quick circulation in freezing temperature.Meaculpa said:
cost effectivity is almost the same but saves time for changing and yet still better protection
Why rely on the manufactuer's recommendation?
I mean they only built the damn engine or had it built to their specs. So what would they know about which oil to use? I would trust them more than a website which is free to tell you whatever it wants to tell you and whose advice you are free to follow.
I mean they only built the damn engine or had it built to their specs. So what would they know about which oil to use? I would trust them more than a website which is free to tell you whatever it wants to tell you and whose advice you are free to follow.
Somewhere in your owners manual you will probably find a place where it says to use 5W30 oil until you reach a certain mileage and then they will say to use a heavier weight oil like 10W30.
I switched my car to Castrol Syntec 0w30 and have been very impressed. The Castrol 0w30 in particular is the only one in the product line that is made in Germany and it is standard in the higher end Porche's. It totally smoothed out my engine. A California Vette driver uses it year round in his car and in the warm climate and swears by it. Now synthetic oil and filter should be changed as regularly as standard oil. The bonus with synthetic is, if there ever is a problem with leakage, the synthetic will resist damage better then standard. You may have to replace some gaskets due to the thin nature of the oil, it tends to find the gaps easier.
The only time you need thicker oil (note that its the number after the w that indicates the thickness. The number before the w indicates pour point) is in high temperature situations or if the engine is turbocharged/supercharged.
Turbodiesel engines are the most extreme example - often needing 15w40 or 20w50.
If you were to take your car down south in the middle of summer and planned on driving the car hard, then a w30 over a w20 oil would be advisable. Otherwise, don't worry about it.
Turbodiesel engines are the most extreme example - often needing 15w40 or 20w50.
If you were to take your car down south in the middle of summer and planned on driving the car hard, then a w30 over a w20 oil would be advisable. Otherwise, don't worry about it.
zekestone said:
To the original poster......... Read what Rubmeister has posted his info is spot on
Engine oil is made of a chain of carbon atoms linked together with mostly hydrogen atoms hanging off of the carbon chain (a carbon atom has 4 bonding sites on it, 2 of which are used to join the chain together and the other two of which can have other atoms hanging off of them.)Meaculpa said:
"Normal" engine oils are made from "cracking" or breaking down long-chain carbon-based molecules of crude oil into the desired carbon chain length for the oil. "Synthetic" oils are made from simple (ie: short carbon chain) esters which are built up to the correct, or ideal, length for an engine oil.
The problem with conventional oil is that crude oil can have all kinds of other things hanging off of the 2 additional binding sites on the individual carbon atoms. These can include sulphur and other compounds. This makes them unstable, prone to breakdown under heat and allows them to generate other chemicals when they break down. Also only a portion of the molecules end up being of the right length. Some are too long and others too short.
Synthetic oils are more "pure" or closer to the "ideal" theoretical formula of oil. More of the molecules are of the "right" length and less impurities are present. This makes makes them more stable at higher termperatures and generate fewer noxious chemicals when the oil breaks down.
So under high heat a synthetic oil is much superior to a regular oil. Under low heat it is less so. Today's higher horespower-per-litre engines are more prone to running hotter so synthetics are really better for them.
We have just talked about the oil as a simple substance though. It is not. Oils have things called viscosity index enhancers (VIEs) added to them. This is where the xxWyy rating on an oil comes from. Most liquids become more viscous as they get colder. Modern engine oils don't. Because of the VIEs they get thinner with the cold (to a point) to allow for easy starting and better fuel economy in cold weather.
The first number (xx) of an xxWyy motor oil is its cold weather viscosity (at about freezing or less?) and the second (yy) is it's operating temperature visicosity (at about 180 to 200º F). An oil like 0W30 has a lot of VIE's, an oil like 10W30 has less and SAE30 has none. SAE30 will turn into sludge in very cold weather and 0W30 will flow easily. 0Wyy oils are appropriate for very cold climates and your owners manual may recommend one for winters in the far north.
Over time these VIE's break down and limit an oil's life but in synthetic oil they tend to break down much more slowly.
So your question really needs to be put in the context of what engine is the oil in? In hot engines, such as turbocharged ones, a synthetic fill provides a lot more protection as the oil ages. If you have an older engine, perhaps of large displacement and a low specific hp output (hp/litre), I wouldn't spend the money on synthetic oil. Just change it regularly. Especially as the engine ages and internal wear allows for more contamination from burned fuel and oil to get into the oil. In a new car I'd stick to the owners manual recommendations for your climate zone and season.
It probably measures total miles driven and average miles of each trip. It may also measure engine or oil temperature. Lots of short trips means more frequent (i.e. shorter mileage) oil changes and long trips with the engine at full operating temp. means more miles between changes.Meister said:
A really advanced system may also record how much time you spend near the top or the bottom of the tach.
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Automobile Industry Report
Interesting article in todays newspaper.
FWIW for the last 20 years I've been changing my vehicles oil every 5,000 miles/8047km and have never had an engine problem and have taken some vehicles to well over 100,000mi/161,000km.
Not sure if I will keep with that interval or move it up to 7,500mi/12,000km.
My vehicle oil sensor systems always indicates that even at 5,000 miles there is no need to change the oil yet.
This is quite a change from when an oil change was required every 2,000 miles when I first started driving.
Few need oil changes every 3,000 miles
ASSOCIATED PRESS - Updated: 03/22/07 6:42 AM
DETROIT — Most major automakers agree: The adage that you should change your car’s oil every 3,000 miles is outdated, and even 5,000 miles may be too often.
Ford Motor Co. became the latest manufacturer to extend its oil life guidelines, making public that Tuesday it is raising the recommended oil change interval from 5,000 miles to 7,500 on its newly redesigned 2007 models and all subsequent redesigned or new models.
The company, like many other manufacturers, said higher oil quality standards and new engine designs were responsible for the change, which affects vehicles driven under normal conditions.
Pete Misangyi, Ford’s supervisor of fuel lubricants, said the company conducted numerous fleet and laboratory tests with newer oils before it raised the interval.
Some manufacturers, such as Honda Motor Co. and General Motors Corp., have stopped making recommendations on all or most of their models, instead relying on sensors that measure oil temperature extremes and engine revolutions over time to calculate oil life and tell drivers when to get the lubricant changed. Oil can lose its lubricating properties if it runs at too low or too high of a temperature.
Peter Lord, executive director of GM’s service operations, said oil can last 12,000 miles or even more for many drivers who don’t run their vehicles in extreme heat or cold or tow heavy loads.
When to change oil is not without controversy, though.
Toyota Motor Corp. reduced its change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 in 2004 in part because it found that more drivers ran their vehicles under severe stop-and-start and short trip conditions that cause oil to deteriorate more quickly, said cpmpany spokesman Bill Kwong.
Nissan Motor Co. recommends changing oil in its Nissan and Infiniti vehicles every 7,500 miles or six months — unless the vehicle is used mainly for towing, trips of five miles or less in normal temperatures, 10 miles or less in freezing temperatures, stop-and-go driving in hot weather or low-speed driving for long distances, in which the oil should be changed every 3,750 miles or three months, spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said.
Interesting article in todays newspaper.
FWIW for the last 20 years I've been changing my vehicles oil every 5,000 miles/8047km and have never had an engine problem and have taken some vehicles to well over 100,000mi/161,000km.
Not sure if I will keep with that interval or move it up to 7,500mi/12,000km.
My vehicle oil sensor systems always indicates that even at 5,000 miles there is no need to change the oil yet.
This is quite a change from when an oil change was required every 2,000 miles when I first started driving.
Few need oil changes every 3,000 miles
ASSOCIATED PRESS - Updated: 03/22/07 6:42 AM
DETROIT — Most major automakers agree: The adage that you should change your car’s oil every 3,000 miles is outdated, and even 5,000 miles may be too often.
Ford Motor Co. became the latest manufacturer to extend its oil life guidelines, making public that Tuesday it is raising the recommended oil change interval from 5,000 miles to 7,500 on its newly redesigned 2007 models and all subsequent redesigned or new models.
The company, like many other manufacturers, said higher oil quality standards and new engine designs were responsible for the change, which affects vehicles driven under normal conditions.
Pete Misangyi, Ford’s supervisor of fuel lubricants, said the company conducted numerous fleet and laboratory tests with newer oils before it raised the interval.
Some manufacturers, such as Honda Motor Co. and General Motors Corp., have stopped making recommendations on all or most of their models, instead relying on sensors that measure oil temperature extremes and engine revolutions over time to calculate oil life and tell drivers when to get the lubricant changed. Oil can lose its lubricating properties if it runs at too low or too high of a temperature.
Peter Lord, executive director of GM’s service operations, said oil can last 12,000 miles or even more for many drivers who don’t run their vehicles in extreme heat or cold or tow heavy loads.
When to change oil is not without controversy, though.
Toyota Motor Corp. reduced its change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 in 2004 in part because it found that more drivers ran their vehicles under severe stop-and-start and short trip conditions that cause oil to deteriorate more quickly, said cpmpany spokesman Bill Kwong.
Nissan Motor Co. recommends changing oil in its Nissan and Infiniti vehicles every 7,500 miles or six months — unless the vehicle is used mainly for towing, trips of five miles or less in normal temperatures, 10 miles or less in freezing temperatures, stop-and-go driving in hot weather or low-speed driving for long distances, in which the oil should be changed every 3,750 miles or three months, spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said.
Manufacturers can now afford to pander to maintenance-averse customers because they have invented so many additional scheduled services to recommend and so many different systems that reruire freequent service that their dealer networks don;t need to see the customer as freequently because every other visit ends up in a $400-600 bill anyway.WoodPeckr said:
I put zero stock in the manufacturers recommendation, not only because it's a marketing strategy, but also because it's easy for them to make whatever claims they want knowing that they can wash their hands of that vehicle the day after the warranty expires.
Ah yes, Ford, a company well known for dilligent quality control and keeping the customer's best interests at heart ...
The manufacturers all use rediculously misleading language and outdated criteria to confuse customers. What they term as "sever" or "heavy" are actually the normal driving habits of 95 percent of city dwellers.
Those two quotes are bold faced lies by the companies. In reality, both GM and Nissan expect owners to service their vehicles every 3750 Mi (or 6000 Kms in Canada) or within 3 monts WHICHEVER COMES FIRST and they mail letters to owners notifying them of such. Customers can ignore this at their own risk, but if they end up with an engine or emssion related problem, the company will be only to pleased to find a missed service interval in their records as an excuse to refuse warranty coverage on the basis of owner not fullfiling service obligations.
If you are customer who trades up to a new car every 3rd or 4th year, you prbably don't have much to worry about - most engines can likely survive the 3 year warranty period either way. But if you are a person who doesn't like pilling on debt and plans to drive the car for years after it's paid off, then igonore the propaganda and change your oil as often as possible.
BTW, the rationale for freequent filter changes is not filtration, it's FLOW.
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Here's the deal with lightweight oils. Basically the main reason for the existence of 5W30 and 5W20 for passenger cars is the CAFE ratings. A fraction of an MPG adds up over tens of thousands of vehicles.
Rarely does all the talk of tighter tolerences hold any water. For example Honda changed the recommendation from 5W30 to 5W20 in a year in which they made no changes to the design of the engine. Some fieldwork I found on an automotive forum a few years ago listed a whole bunch of German models which are spec's for much lighter oils in North America than they are in their home market. Did the engines magically get tighter on the boat trip from Germany?
Many informed people without avested interest think that 5W20 and even 5W30 should never be used except during winter in cold climates. They feel these oils have too many viscosity improving additives which form varnish-like deposits over time.
If you have a new vehicle under warranty, the it's best to follow the manual so they can't find a loophole in case of a warranty issue. But if you have a car that's out of warranty, you should probably stay away from 5W20 except for your Dec- Feb oil change. Keep in mind a conventional oil will shear one weight down halfway into the typical interval.
Rarely does all the talk of tighter tolerences hold any water. For example Honda changed the recommendation from 5W30 to 5W20 in a year in which they made no changes to the design of the engine. Some fieldwork I found on an automotive forum a few years ago listed a whole bunch of German models which are spec's for much lighter oils in North America than they are in their home market. Did the engines magically get tighter on the boat trip from Germany?
Many informed people without avested interest think that 5W20 and even 5W30 should never be used except during winter in cold climates. They feel these oils have too many viscosity improving additives which form varnish-like deposits over time.
If you have a new vehicle under warranty, the it's best to follow the manual so they can't find a loophole in case of a warranty issue. But if you have a car that's out of warranty, you should probably stay away from 5W20 except for your Dec- Feb oil change. Keep in mind a conventional oil will shear one weight down halfway into the typical interval.
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Many informed people without avested interest think that 5W20 and even 5W30 should never be used except during winter in cold climates. They feel sthese oils have too many viscosity improving additives which form varnish-like deposits over time.
.[/QUOTE]
So what would you use then ???
.[/QUOTE]
So what would you use then ???
My car manuals have been quite clear on oil change intervals.Hard Idle said:
Every 3,000 miles, if you're a city driver, 7,500 miles if you're a highway driver. My job requires a lot of miles to be put on my vehicles so I could change it every 7,500 mi. Personally I think 7,500 miles is too long to wait, remembering having to change oil every 2,000 miles when I first started driving many years ago so I opt to change oil every 5,000 miles. GM spent quite a bit on their 'oil sensor system' which works remarkably well in telling you when an oil change in necessary......No doubt much to the chagrin on the oil companies which wish everyone would continue to change oil every 3,000 miles or sooner.
As stated above:
FWIW for the last 20 years I've been changing my GM & Ford vehicles, oil every 5,000 miles/8047km and have never had any engine problems and have taken some vehicles to well over 100,000mi/161,000km.
Not sure if I will keep with that interval or move it up to 7,500mi/12,000km.
My vehicle oil sensor systems always indicates that even at 5,000 miles there is no need to change the oil yet.
This is quite a change from when an oil change was required every 2,000 miles when I first started driving.
