Not true in the Asian community where education for the kids is priority number one. Ever notice how many of the top high school graduates are Asians?
Quebec Student Protest
- Thread starter dcbogey
- Start date
What you are really saying is...I disagree with the study conclusions that you have presented because it does not mesh with my welfare fantasy. Quite sad.
Hey guys while were at it let's subsidize ALL grade levels with living expenses too. I'm mean it shouldn't be the parents responsibility. Everyone is entitled to everything because they deserve it.
Gotta love the social enginneers.
Gotta love the social enginneers.
Yes , because if you never have to pay for anything you will value it that much more.
I'm afraid this is just the flavour of the year for us. This is the 2012 equivalent of the Occupy movement. Charest is well and truly screwed on this one though. In a few week festival season will begin in Montreal which is a huge tourist attraction. The pressure will be to make sure that doesn't get disrupted.
I'm afraid this is just the flavour of the year for us. This is the 2012 equivalent of the Occupy movement. Charest is well and truly screwed on this one though. In a few week festival season will begin in Montreal which is a huge tourist attraction. The pressure will be to make sure that doesn't get disrupted.
It has to be seen in context of governments still cutting taxes on corporations and higher earners, where the divide between rich and poor is still getting higher. In this context the raise in tuition is seen as a tax on youth.Yes , because if you never have to pay for anything you will value it that much more.
I'm afraid this is just the flavour of the year for us. This is the 2012 equivalent of the Occupy movement. Charest is well and truly screwed on this one though. In a few week festival season will begin in Montreal which is a huge tourist attraction. The pressure will be to make sure that doesn't get disrupted.
The OWS is still growing, part of the movement is a distrust of politics, parties and politicians, whereby they don't want a unified face. Charest is trying to play off peoples unrest with the protests, but the latest law has gone too far and will now provoke even larger demonstrations, certainly now that the 400 kids were kettled and arrested.
Groggy, please provide details of the Quebec government's corporate tax cut in the last 2 years. I thought it was explained to you that this was a provincial matter. One could just as easily make the argument that these fees are necessary to pay for salary increases for public sector employees.
It has beome political. I see that your pied piper , Sid Ryan feels left out and is trying to provoke the Ontario students. Gilles Ducette is now involved as are Quebec unions. It appears as if control of the protests will be taken away from the students by these factions much like the occupy movement in Toronto was hijacked by organized labour.
I doubt many anglophones understand the historical context of subsidized tuition in Quebec, which is why this issue resonates with so many there.
Making education available to every Quebecer was one of the foundations of the Quiet Revolution, of making Quebec a province for the Quebecois, who had been shut out of many things in their own province, so this is seen as more than just a financial issue. Critics of Charet view it as a betrayal of the ideas of the QR and so the issue is seen as an attack on the the whole ideology.
For some it's standing for a larger debate on whether Quebec should continue on the plan of the QR or modernise and become more like surrounding Anglo states and provinces.
Making education available to every Quebecer was one of the foundations of the Quiet Revolution, of making Quebec a province for the Quebecois, who had been shut out of many things in their own province, so this is seen as more than just a financial issue. Critics of Charet view it as a betrayal of the ideas of the QR and so the issue is seen as an attack on the the whole ideology.
For some it's standing for a larger debate on whether Quebec should continue on the plan of the QR or modernise and become more like surrounding Anglo states and provinces.
The evidence seems to be that the low income students who are most discouraged from the prospect of debt are the low ability ones. However, let’s put that aside for a moment. I wonder if you underestimate effects of upbringing on access to university. That often keeps people out of university before they even get to the point they can apply.
One report I read said that 30% of qualified students in Denmark don’t get into university, so their system would appear to also not be perfect. It did not say how they defined “qualified” but I imagine it would be related to high school grades. However, I would say that the access problems for many low income students start well before then with parents who don’t emphasis the importance of school even in high school.
Compare this to the newer “open access” universities in BC. Open access refers to universities that students can get into with only a minimum performance in high school. New Zealand also has such a system. I worked in the New Zealand system and it was horrible. However, I now realize that the problem there was that the funding system made universities so desperate for students that they were under pressure to keep students enrolled no matter how bad they were. In BC, the situation is different as the Open access universities are prepared to accept very high attrition rates in first year. Thus, students who, for whatever reason, would not have gotten the grades in high school to otherwise be considered “qualified” for universities sometimes actually do prove that they can handle it. Often they transfer to the more traditional universities after a year or two. My experience is that they are often better than those who got accepted directly into the more traditional universities.
I am not that familiar with the Danish system but I suspect that these students would never make it into Danish universities as it would be too costly to accept them given the low probability they would survive first year. Thus, the ones that do have potential would be wasted in that system.
My basic point is that I don’t think it is always straight forward to determine which system is most likely to “waste” potentially good low income students.
I think the question is this: Should the government of Quebec continue to struggle to elevate the children of ordinary Quebecois into positions of power and status, or should those working class Quebecois be relegated to being nothing more than "the waterboys of their own country?"
If this were really just a question if the best use if funds in service of that cause there would be no protest. There are protests because if the perception they the government is abandoning the cause.
If this were really just a question if the best use if funds in service of that cause there would be no protest. There are protests because if the perception they the government is abandoning the cause.
State Universities are less expensive for in-state tuition - Ohio State is about 10K a year - that is seen as a bargain for a VERY good school. If you go there out of state you might have to pay 25K, NYU is about 35K, Stanford is in the 50s....
OTB
It's pretty good for a very large and diverse population..... Look at a guy like Larry Ellison and tell me anyone can't make it in the US.... or Mr. 9-9-9.....
OTB
You see a problem, I see a new tourist draw. Tour buses taking people around to see protesters and police clash.
Only one problem......
When adjusted for inflation, the average Quebec Student in 1968 paid more for his or her education than the average university student in Quebec will pay with Charest's increase. In fact, if Charest were to implement all of his cost increases in the next 5 years, it would only then EQUAL what a student paid in 1968 (at the height of the so called "quiet Revolution" and the "Age of Aquarius")
Damn that math...
Oh yeah, linky:
http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/enseignementsuperieur/droitsscolarite/index_en.asp?page=cout
The student protesters are proud of the fact that their protest has played a big part in the loss of almost $200 million dollars in the local economy; all this over $375.
These folks usually drop out of school at age 16 and have their first born at age 18. Maybe the solution is for poor families to hand their first born to the State and have the State provide for all their needs.
That's anecdotal, and happens to be the bread and butter of too much of the American media. In actual fact the Anglo world, particularly the US and UK, have poor social (and economic) mobility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#Country_comparison
The Anglo world, particularly the US and UK, also tends to have high inequality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
Oddly enough (or not), these same places have gone out of their way to slash taxes and regulations, and have experienced little in the way of meaningful middle class growth or poverty reduction.
Really?
Any proof to back this up or are you just venting your ignorance for Quebec.
The actual truth is that less than 12% of the population in the 20-24 age group lack a high school education. approximately 45% of the 25-65 age group, have post secondary education; about the middle of the provinces in Canada and middle of the industrialized countries of the world.
http://www.cpq.qc.ca/assets/files/divers/2010/bulletin-prosperite-2010_en.pdf
That's not much of a gotcha. It's equivalent to: We hit this target, then we incrementally moved beyond it (or in the case of inflation, it moved beyond us), now we're trying to move back the other way but it's OK because it's in line with the initial target. Huh? Where's the gotcha?
Too many North Americans have bought into the notion that protest is a form of public relations. They'll quote, 'non-violence' and treat it as an exercise in media relations. That notion of protest favours our elites and established interests. It's largely flaccid and long-term useless. You might save that stand of trees now, but can you muster a repeat performance decade after decade? Effective protest, even if non-violent and not deliberately damaging to property, MUST be both PERSISTENT, and carry the implicit threat of mob moderated undemocratic IMPOSED CHANGE. That can be good or bad depending on the change incurred, and how the change is incurred.
The 'Red Square' protests are important in that they mark a return to ACTUAL protest, in a similar vein to the stronger Occupy camps. Modern North American governments are unprepared to deal with that. The Quebec Liberals' handling of this shows that. The protest laws most of all-- The laws read like, "I dare you" and the protesters seem inclined to clog police stations and the courts. There's the famous Mario Savio "Bodies on the Gears" speech. The Quebec government just gave the protesters the easiest way possible to clog the gears of the machine with their bodies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Savio#.22Bodies_upon_the_gears.22_speech
"
We're human beings!...There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all.
"
