PWHL

Darts

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Jan 15, 2017
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I hope the league is successful but:

1) It has to draw more fans than just the families and friends of the players.
2) If it is successful, there will likely be an influx of trans. (Of course, the wokies and lefties would love the PWHL to be dominated by trans.)
 

tml

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2011
5,432
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Personally I find Women's hockey boring and no longer watch it, but it's nice to see them try and form a new league. They seem to be doing it in measured steps, which is the right way. Hopefully, it succeeds and gives young girls something to aspire to.
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
23,023
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Personally I find Women's hockey boring and no longer watch it, but it's nice to see them try and form a new league. They seem to be doing it in measured steps, which is the right way. Hopefully, it succeeds and gives young girls something to aspire to.
When it comes to a professional league they are in competition with men for an audience although they don't actually compete physically against men. I hope they don't take money generated by the professional men to subsidize professional women sports (I think they do that in college).
 

Dutch Oven

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Feb 12, 2019
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This league is a bad business idea fueled by social engineering.

Each team has 25 players on the roster. The player salaries range from $55K to $80K. Using 55K, that's a player payroll of $1,375,000. Toronto is the best market in the league. The seating capacity in Toronto is 2600. They have sold that out. There are boxes and standing room, but lets face it, there will be little additional net gate revenue (concessions, parking?) beyond the seats. There are only 12 home games per team during the season. The average ticket price is claimed by the team to be $117.11 (that seems dubiously high, but let's roll with it). That means the anticipated gate revenue (in the best market) should be anticipated to be $3,653,832. That means, barring other revenue streams (such as TV, which should not be substantial because there is no big US deal) after paying ONLY players, there is only $2,278,832 to pay:

a. For the venues
b. For the advertising
c. For all the team staff and executives
d. For the overhead and operating costs of the team (including any capital or operating financing)
e. For commission and service fees to ticket sellers
d. For the referees
e. To investors

This is NOT a complete list of operating expenses.

In short, this league is a guaranteed money loser!

Like many sports fans, I did check out the opening Toronto game on TV to see what this would look like. Several observations;

1. This hockey is noticeably not as good as what we see in the international competitions that we're used to seeing, and THAT hockey is about at the level of 14 or 15 year old boys AAA hockey (except without body checking and the fact that none of these players can shoot the puck).

2. The TV presentation was POOR. I counted only 3 different cameras, and these camerapersons could NOT keep the puck in frame. The predominant camera angle was fairly high up, so watching the game on TV was like watching it from standing room. In short, even an experienced hockey fan would have difficulty seeing the puck (even when it was occasionally in frame).

3. Choosing to launch a hockey league with an appearance by a tennis player and well known gay icon is NOT the way to attract more male (or even more STRAIGHT female) fans to the game. That choice SCREAMED ideology over sport.

4. No logos for team jerseys? At least TRY to build some identity and branding!

This is a poor product with poor economics behind it. Some female professional sports can succeed (golf and tennis come to mind), but this one won't. First, they are giving straight male sports fans absolutely nothing to look at (even if there are a couple of attractive women in the league, they are covered up by hockey equipment), and there's just not enough camera focus on any individual players. This is clearly a sports league that's not being run by sports fans. They will attract and get support from the usual equality advocacy types, but the problem is that these people are too few and just don't spend enough disposable income on sports entertainment.

Major fail!
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
23,023
11,261
113
This league is a bad business idea fueled by social engineering.

Each team has 25 players on the roster. The player salaries range from $55K to $80K. Using 55K, that's a player payroll of $1,375,000. Toronto is the best market in the league. The seating capacity in Toronto is 2600. They have sold that out. There are boxes and standing room, but lets face it, there will be little additional net gate revenue (concessions, parking?) beyond the seats. There are only 12 home games per team during the season. The average ticket price is claimed by the team to be $117.11 (that seems dubiously high, but let's roll with it). That means the anticipated gate revenue (in the best market) should be anticipated to be $3,653,832. That means, barring other revenue streams (such as TV, which should not be substantial because there is no big US deal) after playing ONLY players, there is only $2,278,832 to pay:

a. For the venues
b. For the advertising
c. For all the team staff and executives
d. For the overhead and operating costs of the team (including any capital or operating financing)
e. For commission and service fees to ticket sellers
d. For the referees
e. To investors

This is NOT a complete list of operating expenses.

In short, this league is a guaranteed money loser!

Like many sports fans, I did check out the opening Toronto game on TV to see what this would look like. Several observations;

1. This hockey is noticeably not as good as we see in the international competitions that we're used to seeing, and THAT hockey is about at the level of 14 or 15 year old boys AAA hockey (except without body checking and the fact that none of these players can shoot the puck).

2. The TV presentation was POOR. I counted only 3 different cameras, and these camerapersons could NOT keep the puck in frame. The predominant camera angle was fairly high up, so watching the game on TV was like watching it from standing room. In short, even an experienced hockey fan would have difficulty seeing the puck (even when it was occasionally in frame).

3. Choosing to launch a hockey league with an appearance by a tennis player and well known gay icon is NOT the way to attract more male (or even more STRAIGHT female) fans to the game. That choice SCREAMED ideology over sport.

4. No logos for team jerseys? At least TRY to build some identity and branding!

This is a poor product with poor economics behind it. Some female professional sports can succeed (golf and tennis come to mind), but this one won't. First, they are giving straight male sports fans absolutely nothing to look at (even if there are a couple of attractive women in the league, they are covered up by hockey equipment), and there's just not enough camera focus on any individual players. This is clearly a sports league that's not being run by sports fans. They will attract and get support from the usual equality advocacy types, but the problem is that these people are too few and just don't spend enough disposable income on sports entertainment.

Major fail!
Excellent analysis. I was wondering about the economic viability of the league. Your post went into a lot of detail about why the league is not economically viable. It's only a matter of time before they will ask/demand financial aid from the NHL. Also, does the league have commercial sponsors?

Comparison to other women's professional sports.
Golf: Aren't all or almost all the money from sponsors?
Tennis: Isn't the women's tour heavily subsidized by revenue from the men's draw?
WNBA: How are they funded?
 
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Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
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Excellent analysis. I was wondering about the economic viability of the league. Your post went into a lot of detail about why the league is not economically viable. It's only a matter of time before they will ask/demand financial aid from the NHL. Also, does the league have commercial sponsors?

Comparison to other women's professional sports.
Golf: Aren't all or almost all the money from sponsors?
Tennis: Isn't the women's tour heavily subsidized by revenue from the men's draw?
WNBA: How are they funded?
I don't know all the answers to your questions (I suspect the answers could be easily researched) but here is a partial response:

Golf. Yes, the prize money is contributed by the sponsors for each tournament as well as by sponsors of the Association. Why do sponsors kick in? Because men watch women's golf in significant numbers. Watch the ads that run during women's golf. It's not just tampons and fabric softener! Why do men watch? Because there are enough good looking players wearing short skirts and tight tops in close focus to give men what they want from women's sports. Under those circumstances, it doesn't matter that they can't hit it as far and they play courses that are set up easier than PGA stops. Men don't even seem to care how many lesbians there are on tour (just like they enjoy lesbian porn, I guess?).

Tennis. Ditto. Although tennis probably hurt it's average viewership (slightly) when they started cracking down all the "grunting" in the women's game (another instance of not understanding their own market)! However, one thing that women's golf has over women's tennis is that the golfers change their clothes every round (unlike women's tennis players who may wear the same stinky outfit every day for up to two weeks (shocking, but true)!

WNBA. After 25 years of operation, it still doesn't make a profit: https://en.as.com/en/2022/03/07/nba/1646677389_970277.html. And yes, the NBA kicks in money to keep it afloat. Why doing this is in the interest of the NBA, you'd have to ask the NBA! Although the NBA certainly knows how to make a buck, you have to wonder about this initiative.
 
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black booty lover

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2007
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This league is a bad business idea fueled by social engineering.

Each team has 25 players on the roster. The player salaries range from $55K to $80K. Using 55K, that's a player payroll of $1,375,000. Toronto is the best market in the league. The seating capacity in Toronto is 2600. They have sold that out. There are boxes and standing room, but lets face it, there will be little additional net gate revenue (concessions, parking?) beyond the seats. There are only 12 home games per team during the season. The average ticket price is claimed by the team to be $117.11 (that seems dubiously high, but let's roll with it). That means the anticipated gate revenue (in the best market) should be anticipated to be $3,653,832. That means, barring other revenue streams (such as TV, which should not be substantial because there is no big US deal) after paying ONLY players, there is only $2,278,832 to pay:

a. For the venues
b. For the advertising
c. For all the team staff and executives
d. For the overhead and operating costs of the team (including any capital or operating financing)
e. For commission and service fees to ticket sellers
d. For the referees
e. To investors

This is NOT a complete list of operating expenses.

In short, this league is a guaranteed money loser!

Like many sports fans, I did check out the opening Toronto game on TV to see what this would look like. Several observations;

1. This hockey is noticeably not as good as what we see in the international competitions that we're used to seeing, and THAT hockey is about at the level of 14 or 15 year old boys AAA hockey (except without body checking and the fact that none of these players can shoot the puck).

2. The TV presentation was POOR. I counted only 3 different cameras, and these camerapersons could NOT keep the puck in frame. The predominant camera angle was fairly high up, so watching the game on TV was like watching it from standing room. In short, even an experienced hockey fan would have difficulty seeing the puck (even when it was occasionally in frame).

3. Choosing to launch a hockey league with an appearance by a tennis player and well known gay icon is NOT the way to attract more male (or even more STRAIGHT female) fans to the game. That choice SCREAMED ideology over sport.

4. No logos for team jerseys? At least TRY to build some identity and branding!

This is a poor product with poor economics behind it. Some female professional sports can succeed (golf and tennis come to mind), but this one won't. First, they are giving straight male sports fans absolutely nothing to look at (even if there are a couple of attractive women in the league, they are covered up by hockey equipment), and there's just not enough camera focus on any individual players. This is clearly a sports league that's not being run by sports fans. They will attract and get support from the usual equality advocacy types, but the problem is that these people are too few and just don't spend enough disposable income on sports entertainment.

Major fail!

There's no question the league will lose money. Just a matter of how much money they willing lose for so long before they throw in the towel on this.
 
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silentkisser

Master of Disaster
Jun 10, 2008
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I'm not going to predict the long-term viability of a women's league. I will say that all the men's leagues have had 50-100 years to develop loyal fanbases, so you cannot compare them. I mean, in the 1920s, how much do you think a star NHL player made? They still had to work jobs in the offseason. So the owners made a ton of money. In this day and age, you don't really expect the players to make peanuts, so the salaries are higher.

Now, playing in the old MLG is nice, but that can't hold enough. I don't know if they could enter an agreement with MLSE to host their games if they become more popular.

I didn't get a chance to watch yesterday, but I will bet that it will only get better. Right now they are so new, there are no rivalries or what not. Once that starts to develop, you'll see more passion. And, from some of the highlights I saw, they are being fairly physical for a no-contact league...
 

Fun For All

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2014
11,542
5,802
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This league is a bad business idea fueled by social engineering.

Each team has 25 players on the roster. The player salaries range from $55K to $80K. Using 55K, that's a player payroll of $1,375,000. Toronto is the best market in the league. The seating capacity in Toronto is 2600. They have sold that out. There are boxes and standing room, but lets face it, there will be little additional net gate revenue (concessions, parking?) beyond the seats. There are only 12 home games per team during the season. The average ticket price is claimed by the team to be $117.11 (that seems dubiously high, but let's roll with it). That means the anticipated gate revenue (in the best market) should be anticipated to be $3,653,832. That means, barring other revenue streams (such as TV, which should not be substantial because there is no big US deal) after paying ONLY players, there is only $2,278,832 to pay:

a. For the venues
b. For the advertising
c. For all the team staff and executives
d. For the overhead and operating costs of the team (including any capital or operating financing)
e. For commission and service fees to ticket sellers
d. For the referees
e. To investors

This is NOT a complete list of operating expenses.

In short, this league is a guaranteed money loser!

Like many sports fans, I did check out the opening Toronto game on TV to see what this would look like. Several observations;

1. This hockey is noticeably not as good as what we see in the international competitions that we're used to seeing, and THAT hockey is about at the level of 14 or 15 year old boys AAA hockey (except without body checking and the fact that none of these players can shoot the puck).

2. The TV presentation was POOR. I counted only 3 different cameras, and these camerapersons could NOT keep the puck in frame. The predominant camera angle was fairly high up, so watching the game on TV was like watching it from standing room. In short, even an experienced hockey fan would have difficulty seeing the puck (even when it was occasionally in frame).

3. Choosing to launch a hockey league with an appearance by a tennis player and well known gay icon is NOT the way to attract more male (or even more STRAIGHT female) fans to the game. That choice SCREAMED ideology over sport.

4. No logos for team jerseys? At least TRY to build some identity and branding!

This is a poor product with poor economics behind it. Some female professional sports can succeed (golf and tennis come to mind), but this one won't. First, they are giving straight male sports fans absolutely nothing to look at (even if there are a couple of attractive women in the league, they are covered up by hockey equipment), and there's just not enough camera focus on any individual players. This is clearly a sports league that's not being run by sports fans. They will attract and get support from the usual equality advocacy types, but the problem is that these people are too few and just don't spend enough disposable income on sports entertainment.

Major fail!
That's great that you went to this level to show how stupid the league is too operate...but...I'm sure all those number aren't right, how could you know you're just guessing/assuming and I'm sure the league know's how difficult the task will be.

Just to start...I'm sure there are players that make less than 55k a season.
 

black booty lover

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2007
9,795
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I didn't get a chance to watch yesterday, but I will bet that it will only get better. Right now they are so new, there are no rivalries or what not. Once that starts to develop, you'll see more passion. And, from some of the highlights I saw, they are being fairly physical for a no-contact league...
It's always loses money, that's why the leagues always fold. The only reason this time it might stick around longer is the owner of the Dogers is putting in 10's of millions in.

It's a rich white persons sport that's on decline even for the men. A worse version of the product will only have so much market to grow in. If young girls can't afford to play the game, they're not going to be interested in going to watch it.
 
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Darts

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Jan 15, 2017
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Watching Montreal vs Ottawa on channel 22 (I had thought a Leaf game was on) now. During the intermission I took some pics of the players.
PWHL1.JPG
 
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Joyrection

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Oct 22, 2023
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I seldom watch professional sports, good luck to the women trying to create a new league but you won't see a dime from my pocket.
 

Malibuk

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Jan 9, 2017
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I found it boring too, but it was good that the refs let them play physically.
There was way more contact without penalties than usual for women's hockey.
I like the rule that a shorthanded goal ends the penalty.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts