Pro Hamas in the west - and their adventures

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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You were wrong about the ICJ ruling and the import and message of the Provisional Measures.
Incorrect.

You repeatedly quoted the body of the ruling without noting that the Provisional Measures are the decisions voted on by the judges and to which Israel must abide. It was only after you looked at the full court ruling and stopped copying one paragraph from the body that you moved on. Quite often you've called me out for misrepresenting post fairly but this is a fair call on my end.
You are mistaken.

For years I've argued that the best path to peace is to end apartheid and give all Palestinians living under Israeli rule full citizenship and the vote.
The problem is that you think this can be imposed from the outside.
Outside of the US invading and setting up a puppet regime, how do you expect this to happen other than a long, slow, painful process when both sides are rejecting the solution you prefer?

Ethno states are poor idea and that land too divided for a two state solution to work. After the genocide I'm not sure, recovering from 75 years of occupation and now genocide will be much harder than South Africa or Rwanda's recoveries.
Both of which have been incredibly difficult and fraught.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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I don't see the value in assigning the term 'real' as a qualifier to a ceasefire, that's your term only.
You're the one who brought it up and used it.
I also think it is a bad qualifier, which is why I objected to it.

You could try to differentiate between a truce and a ceasefire, but even that's unclear.
They are all somewhat unclear, although a truce tends to be less formal than a cease-fire.

Israel wants to use a specific truce time period in exchange for Hamas giving up their only negotiating chip, the hostages. The reason I don't support this is that its a clear attempt to repeat the previous Israeli truce which did not in any form stop the genocide or give Palestinians full respite or aid. A ceasefire for 6 weeks makes it harder to resume but there needs to be a clear statement that the genocide won't resume.
That's fine that you think there are strategic compromises involved in any cessation of hostilities, I completely agree.
I objected you to saying that one you didn't agree with wasn't "real".

Check the thread, I believe that you brought up the word 'real'.
You are, of course, completely wrong about that.

Its not a real ceasefire.
Israel say they will stop killing Palestinians for a little while so Hamas can return the hostages and then they can get back to the genocide.
Hamas will only agree to a real ceasefire.

The last poll I saw still had Hamas at 75-80% support.
It would be good to produce that poll.
I suspect polling in a war zone is incredibly difficult.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Incorrect.
You are mistaken.
Feel free to find the posts and prove it, valcazar.
I'd apologize and accept you were right if you can do it.
But I know you copy and pasted an image of the discussion of the charges and did not accept that the provisional measures were the the conclusions.
I believe you quoted from something in section IV, and not the conclusions in section VI of the ruling.

IIRC, you were arguing that the ICJ ruling gave demands to Hamas and not to Israel, and that you used a copy and pasted image from chapter IV or V and either intentionally ignored or were ignorant about chapter VI and the import of the provisional measures.

IV THE RIGHTS WHOSE PROTECTION IS SOUGHT AND THE LINK BETWEEN SUCH RIGHTS AND THE MEASURES REQUESTED
VI CONCLUSION AND MEASURES TO BE ADOPTED


I'm correct in this case, Israel was ordered through the provisional measures to not commit genocide, to prevent killing Palestinians in Gaza, to allow all aid through and to charge all those who incite genocide by the ICJ. You ignored paragraphs 75-84, whether intentionally or not, and refused to consider them until I posted them directly here.


https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf




The problem is that you think this can be imposed from the outside.
Outside of the US invading and setting up a puppet regime, how do you expect this to happen other than a long, slow, painful process when both sides are rejecting the solution you prefer?
At worst it will happen as it did for South Africa, through boycotts and sanctions, as Canada has started with weapons. At best the US won't veto the next UNSC call for a ceasefire on Monday, Biden will stop Netanyahu from invading Rafah and the ICC and ICJ will follow through with agonizingly slow charges of genocide and war crimes.


Both of which have been incredibly difficult and fraught.
And this one will be even harder, I expect.
Can you articulate another path towards peace that would be less painful?
 
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y2kmark

Class of 69...
May 19, 2002
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Lewiston, NY
The problem is that you think this can be imposed from the outside.
Outside of the US invading and setting up a puppet regime, how do you expect this to happen other than a long, slow, painful process when both sides are rejecting the solution you prefer?
Just stop supplying them with weapons and ammunition, is Israel in danger if they pull back to concentrate on the defense they screwed up on?


Both of which have been incredibly difficult and fraught.
[/QUOTE]
No shit there!!!
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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You're the one who brought it up and used it.
I also think it is a bad qualifier, which is why I objected to it.
That's your opinion.
I think its a fair description of a proposal that was an attempt to implement a temporary pause in the fighting designed only to force Hamas to return the hostages. It had similar issues to the latest resolution that Russia and China vetoed on Friday.

They are all somewhat unclear, although a truce tends to be less formal than a cease-fire.
Would like to do a comparison of the US resolution and the one France will submit on Monday for a vote at the UNSC?
I'm expecting that a 'real' call for a ceasefire will result in a fourth US veto, but Biden's support is starting to waver a tiny bit so there is a tiny chance they let it pass.

That's fine that you think there are strategic compromises involved in any cessation of hostilities, I completely agree.
I objected you to saying that one you didn't agree with wasn't "real".
Fine, you've objected.
Noted.

You are, of course, completely wrong about that.
Noted, I brought it up first.
I'll admit I was wrong about that.




It would be good to produce that poll.
I suspect polling in a war zone is incredibly difficult.
After you admit you were wrong (or prove me wrong) about the ICJ ruling I'm open to discussing that one.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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You are such a hasbara troll.
Do you really think the thousands of Palestinians being held in 'administrative detention' are convicted of anything
...
Most of the people Hamas has demanded the release of are CONVICTED and sentenced to life sentences for murder. It says a lot about respect for life that you and Hamas think 40 elderly and sick Jews are worth 1000 Palestinians.

You're still making excuses for hamas to reject a ceasefire.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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...

The problem is that you think this can be imposed from the outside.
...
Frank is an elitist clown who keeps demanding that Palestinians be forced into becoming Israeli even though they overwhelmingly hate the idea and the Palestinians with the guns refuse the concept.

He sees himself as the white saviour Palestinians need to tell them what to do because he thinks they are incapable of making their own decisions.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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...
Just stop supplying them with weapons and ammunition, is Israel in danger if they pull back to concentrate on the defense they screwed up on?

...
How does Israel having to continually defend their people from Hamas and the rest solve anything? Do you think there is any possibility that Iran (and Qatar) will stop sending money and arms to anti-Israel groups like Hamas, PIJ, or Hezbollah?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Most of the people Hamas has demanded the release of are CONVICTED and sentenced to life sentences for murder. It says a lot about respect for life that you and Hamas think 40 elderly and sick Jews are worth 1000 Palestinians.

You're still making excuses for hamas to reject a ceasefire.
The Israeli military court system is an apartheid venture with a 99.9% rate of finding guilt.
 
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