Pickering Angels

Pro Hamas in the west - and their adventures

mandrill

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You'd lose that case in a second, mr lawyer.
First you'd have to explain why Bosnia was labelled a genocide with far fewer deaths and why attacks on Ukraine were labelled genocide.

Then you'd have to explain why you disagree with the legal definition that genocide is about intent, the intent to destroy a people, their culture, their homes and their ability to survive. There is no number at which point killing people becomes genocide, its all about intent and actions.

No reputable lawyer would try to argue the defence of a crime without reading the actual charges submitted.
Yet here you are, pretending you know better than South Africa and the ICJ but refusing to do even the most basic research.


You won't read the charges, so I'll quote some parts for you.

The acts and omissions by Israel complained of by South Africa are genocidal in character because they are intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part of the Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group, that being the part of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip (‘Palestinians in Gaza’). The acts in question include killing Palestinians in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, and inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. The acts are all attributable to Israel, which has failed to prevent genocide and is committing genocide in manifest violation of the Genocide Convention, and which has also violated and is continuing to violate its other fundamental obligations under the Genocide Convention, including by failing to prevent or punish the direct and public incitement to genocide by senior Israeli officials and others.

The facts relied on by South Africa in this application and to be further developed in these proceedings establish that — against a background of apartheid, expulsion, ethnic cleansing, annexation, occupation, discrimination, and the ongoing denial of the right of the Palestinian people to selfdetermination — Israel, since 7 October 2023 in particular, has failed to prevent genocide and has failed to prosecute the direct and public incitement to genocide. More gravely still, Israel has engaged in, is engaging in and risks further engaging in genocidal acts against the Palestinian people in Gaza. Those acts include killing them, causing them serious mental and bodily harm and deliberately inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction as a group. Repeated statements by Israeli State representatives, including at the highest levels, by the Israeli President, Prime Minister, and Minister of Defence express genocidal intent. That intent is also properly to be inferred from the nature and conduct of Israel’s military operation in Gaza, having regard inter alia to Israel’s failure to provide or ensure essential food, water, medicine, fuel, shelter and other humanitarian assistance for the besieged and blockaded Palestinian people, which has pushed them to the brink of famine. It is also clear from the nature, scope and extent of Israel’s military attacks on Gaza, which have involved the sustained bombardment over more than 11 weeks of one of the most densely populated places in the world, forcing the evacuation of 1.9 million people or 85% of the population of Gaza from their homes and herding them into ever smaller areas, without adequate shelter, in which they continue to be attacked, killed and harmed. Israel has now killed in excess of 21,110 named Palestinians, including over 7,729 children — with over 7,780 others missing, presumed dead under the rubble — and has injured over 55,243 other Palestinians, causing them severe bodily and mental harm. Israel has also laid waste to vast areas of Gaza, including entire neighbourhoods, and has damaged or destroyed in excess of 355,000 Palestinian homes, alongside extensive tracts of agricultural land, bakeries, schools, universities, businesses, places of worship, cemeteries, cultural and archaeological sites, municipal and court buildings, and critical infrastructure, including water and sanitation facilities and electricity networks, while pursuing a relentless assault on the Palestinian medical and healthcare system. Israel has reduced and is continuing to reduce Gaza to rubble, killing, harming and destroying its people, and creating conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction as a group.
But Palestine is clearly NOT about exterminating the Palestinian people or culture. If it was, there would have been far more people killed; there would have been no warnings and safe zones; and civilians would have been deliberately - and not just incidentally - killed.

This is why I don't debate you. You simply say whatever you feel like saying, regardless of the facts. It gets tedious.
 

Frankfooter

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But Palestine is clearly NOT about exterminating the Palestinian people or culture. If it was, there would have been far more people killed; there would have been no warnings and safe zones; and civilians would have been deliberately - and not just incidentally - killed.

This is why I don't debate you. You simply say whatever you feel like saying, regardless of the facts. It gets tedious.
How stupid do you think Netanyahu is, mandrill?

Do you think that he doesn't know how many people he can kill without losing the US as their lone support?
Do you think Biden would be able to support him if he killed 100,000?

Why do you think he's killed 100 journalists and shut down all cell communication repeatedly?
There's a reason the numbers haven't gone up massively, nobody can count and report the number of dead.


Answer honestly, if you can.
Do you really think Netanyahu could kill that many more people and still have Biden and you back him?
 

Frankfooter

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25,000 people out of a population of 2M in 2 months of urban fighting is very low.
1% of the population is dead in 3 months.
That's higher than any war in many decades.
About another 4% are injured and hundreds of thousands sick or starving.

How many people were killed in the Bosnia genocide?
Was that too low in your books to count as genocide?
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
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1% of the population is dead in 3 months.
That's higher than any war in many decades.
About another 4% are injured and hundreds of thousands sick or starving.

How many people were killed in the Bosnia genocide?
Was that too low in your books to count as genocide?
It's not about numbers, it's about intent.

2 months of fighting in an urban environment is likely to produce MANY casualties. In fact, kudos to the IDF that the #'s of civilian casualties is so low. Well done, Israel!
 

Frankfooter

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It's not about numbers, it's about intent.

2 months of fighting in an urban environment is likely to produce MANY casualties. In fact, kudos to the IDF that the #'s of civilian casualties is so low. Well done, Israel!
Yes, that's the crux of the case that South Africa submitted to the ICJ.
Its about intent.
They provided about a dozen pages of sourced quotes from Israeli leaders, from the PM to the army detailing genocidal intent.
They provided evidence of intent to commit genocide through bombs, starvation and disease, all of which Israel continues to do.

Even now Israel is only letting through a fraction of the food necessary for the people of Gaza to survive.

WFP official says 20 to 30 percent of needed aid entering Gaza

Arif Husain, the chief economist at the World Food Programme, has highlighted the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza, where he said no more than 30 percent of the aid needed for Gaza is entering the territory daily.


You've seen multiple examples of intent to destroy all schools, hospitals, most homes and all infrastructure in Gaza.
You've seen multiple examples of Israel intentionally killing doctors, destroying hospitals and blocking medicine.
You've seen multiple examples of reports of starvation and food being withheld.

That's all evidence of genocide.
 
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whynot888

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It's not about numbers, it's about intent.

2 months of fighting in an urban environment is likely to produce MANY casualties. In fact, kudos to the IDF that the #'s of civilian casualties is so low. Well done, Israel!
And they calling it a genocide lol...
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Like the UN?
...
The same UN who condemned the Hamas use of sexual violence you pretend is just zionist lies?

But does this mean you agree to only post tweets from verified organizations involved in law and human rights or are you going to keep using whatever random tweet and pic to demonize israel?
 
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Frankfooter

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The same UN who condemned the Hamas use of sexual violence you pretend is just zionist lies?

But does this mean you agree to only post tweets from verified organizations involved in law and human rights or are you going to keep using whatever random tweet and pic to demonize israel?
So you support the UN and their statements now?
You agree Israel is apartheid, the occupation illegal and support their call for a ceasefire and investigations?
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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So you support the UN and their statements now?
The point is that you quote UN when it suits you and then ignore the UN when it doesn't.

Do you agree with everything that the UN says about what has happened since Oct. 7?
 

Frankfooter

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shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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I support full investigations into all allegations on Palestinians and Israelis over all possible war crimes in Israel/Palestine by the UN, ICC and ICJ.
Do you?
You avoided answering my question.

Do you agree with everything that the UN says about what happened on Oct. 7?
 
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Frankfooter

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You avoided answering my question.

Do you agree with everything that the UN says about what happened on Oct. 7?
You're picking and choosing what you back from the UN.

Do you agree with the UN that Israel is apartheid?
Do you agree with the UN that the occupation is illegal?

Until you agree with those statements your posts about the UN are clearly identified as trolling.


 

mandrill

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Islamic group calling for Shariah law cancels Canadian event after U.K. declares it a terrorist entity (msn.com)


The day after an Islamic organization was declared a terrorist group in Britain, the group’s Canadian branch cancelled a conference it was hosting this weekend that was calling for the resurrection of the Muslim caliphate and the imposition of Shariah law.

Hizb ut Tahrir Canada was convening its conference on Saturday in Mississauga, just outside Toronto, called the Khilafah Conference 2024. Khilafah is the Arabic word for caliphate, referring to a Muslim community governed under Islamic law.



The conference materials — posters, a website, and a polished promotional video — said the group urges the rejection of a Jewish state and the involvement of the United Nations, international law, or other “compromises” in the Middle East, instead encouraging military forces in the Muslim world to defeat “occupiers” in the region.

Hizb ut Tahrir Canada’s conference materials, along with its entire online presence — a website active since 2012, a YouTube channel, Facebook, Instagram, and X accounts — has now been deleted or deactivated, apparently internally.

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 A recent screen shot of the Hezb ut Tahrir Canada website before the group removed it from the internet.

A recent screen shot of the Hezb ut Tahrir Canada website before the group removed it from the internet.© Screenshot / Hizb ut Tahrir
A former leader with the Hizb ut-Tahrir, who now works in extremist deradicalization, said the British declaration has spooked the group’s Canadian supporters.

“Until they can provide the right guidelines for the organization’s English-language speaking areas they will avoid, as much as possible, their membership and activists making statements in the public arena,” said Rashad Ali, a resident senior fellow at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, a counter-extremism think tank based in London, England.


Related video: Toronto woman takes on Canada's ban on Islamic adoptions with Federal Court challenge (cbc.ca)



“Unless they can control what their membership is saying in English, then they can’t be sure that they aren’t going to say something they will regret.”

The members will also fear that Canada might follow Britain’s lead, Ali said.

“Australia and Canada tend to, in counter-terrorism matters, follow where Britain goes. It will be quite likely that if the ban and proscription in Britain is upheld by the British courts, they will apply the same thing in Australia and Canada.”

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 A poster advertising Khilafah Conference 2024.

A poster advertising Khilafah Conference 2024.
Before it was cancelled, the conference was causing concern over the group’s statements, seen as starkly antisemitic, hawkish on eradicating Israel, and supporting elements of militant jihadi violence.

“As a listed terrorist entity in the United Kingdom, the Hizb ut-Tahrir organization should not be given an opportunity to promote and indoctrinate Canadians with their extreme and radical viewpoints through their Khilafah Conference,” said Shimon Koffler Fogel, president of the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs, a Canadian Jewish advocacy organization.

“If it had not been pre-emptively cancelled, we would have expected the authorities to step in to identify it as a potential security risk and prevent the conference from moving forward.”

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 A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.

A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.© Screenshot / Hizb ut Tahrir
When introducing Britain’s proscription order against Hizb ut-Tahrir under the Terrorism Act, U.K.’s Home Secretary James Cleverly said: “Hizb ut-Tahrir is an antisemitic organization that actively promotes and encourages terrorism, including praising and celebrating the appalling 7 October attacks.



“Proscribing this terrorist group will ensure that anyone who belongs to and invites support for them will face consequences. It will curb Hizb ut-Tahrir’s ability to operate as it currently does.”

The terrorist designation went into effect on Jan. 19.

Registered attendees for the Khilafah Conference in Canada were notified the event was cancelled on Jan. 20, with a note saying: “It is with a heavy heart that Hizb ut Tahrir Canada has decided to cancel the Khilafah Conference 2024 because of unforeseen circumstances.”

The notification apologized for the inconvenience but offered no explanation. Tickets for the event were formally cancelled Monday, with instructions on obtaining a refund. Ticket holders had not yet been told where in Mississauga the conference was being held.

Conference organizers did not respond to requests for information and comment by National Post prior to deadline.

The theme for the conference was “Khilafah: Eliminating the obstacles that are delaying its return.” Its materials refer to Israel only as “the Zionist Entity.”

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 A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.

A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.© Screenshot / Hizb ut Tahrir
There were four keynote speakers advertised: Muhammad Malkawi, Mazin Abdul-Adhim, Bilal Khan, and Malik Abu Luqman.

Malkawi was considered the headliner.

In a speech last month, he was quoted as saying that if Muslims came together “you don’t even need to fight for Palestine because there will not be a Jewish state there.” His online accounts say he is based in Jordan, where Hizb ut-Tahrir’s central headquarters are located.


“He is very well known, very public, a popular speaker within the party and has been active for decades,” Ali said.

Malkawi did not respond to a request for comment prior to deadline.

Mazin Abdul-Adhim is based in Canada, in London, Ont., and is active on social media. He describes himself as a Hizb ut Tahrir member on X, where his avatar is the logo for the cancelled conference.

He did not respond to a request for comment. On social media he reacted to Britain’s ban of the group, saying: “by banning HT, they make us a much stronger force, impenetrable and absolutely bulletproof from their false allegations and lies.”


A conference with a similar title is scheduled to be held in Chicago in March, organized by Hizb ut-Tahrir America.

Hizb ut-Tahrir, Arabic for “Party of Liberation,” was founded in 1953 by a cleric as a revolutionary party, meant as a springboard to power in countries with large Muslim populations to spur their unification to restore the medieval Muslim empire, said Ali. (The Canadian branch does not use the more common hyphenated version of the party’s name.)


Although it calls itself a political party, it is not a democratic institution.

“The Hizb ut-Tahrir rejects democracy, it rejects participating in governance with other parties, it rejects the electoral process as a method of gaining power — the only way is by the overthrow of government by revolution,” said Ali.

He said Hizb ut-Tahrir is perhaps unique in the Islamist extremist space, and quite different from groups like ISIS or Al-Qaeda.

“The Hizb ut-Tahrir don’t engage in material action, does not undertake violent acts,” he said. They can, however, be accused of “sanitizing terror ideology and calling for revolutionary change.

“They express quite extreme forms of antisemitism.”

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 A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.

A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.© Screenshot / Hizb ut Tahrir
For example, they have the view that Israel is an occupied country and therefore violent action is acceptable there, he said.

“They don’t do it as a group, so their members don’t engage in it,” Ali said of terror attacks. “Neither do they call for their members to do so. However, they do believe that military action to liberate these countries is acceptable. There is an ambiguity there.”

The organization has been banned in several countries, including Russia, China, Germany, Indonesia, and in most Arab countries.

Hizb ut-Tahri’s message of overthrowing Muslim governments standing in the way of unification makes it an enemy in many Muslim states. It is not banned in Israel, Ali said.

“It is not a particularly popular movement.”

In Britain, Hizb ut-Tahrir is the 36th international organization to be declared a terrorist group. The list includes Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, best known as ISIL or ISIS, which also pushes for an Islamic caliphate.

Prior to Hizb ut-Tahrir, the most recently proscribed terror organization by Britain was the Wagner Group, a Russian private military company, added last year. In 2021, Hamas’s political wing was added, as were The Base, Atomwaffen Division, and National Socialist Order, U.S. white supremacist militant groups.

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 A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.

A screengrab from a promotional video advertising the Hezb ut Tahrir Khilafah Conference 2024.© Screenshot / Hizb ut Tahrir
The British government said Hizb ut-Tahrir “has a footprint in at least 32 countries,” with its headquarters in Beirut, Lebanon.

“The U.K. government assess that Hizb ut-Tahrir, including its national branches, is currently concerned in terrorism, and meets the ‘promotes and encourages’ limb of the statutory test.

“A number of articles were posted online on Hizb ut-Tahrir’s central media website (and third-party websites), attributed to several of Hizb ut-Tahrir’s branches, which celebrated and praised the 7 October 2023 attack by Hamas and associated events. The content of these articles, many of which refer to Hamas as ‘heroes’ and encourage further terrorist activity, constitute the promotion and encouragement of terrorism.”

Hizb ut-Tahrir’s central media office in Beirut did not respond to requests by the Post for comment prior to deadline.

Hizb ut-Tahrir in Pakistan issued a statement Monday about Britain’s declaration.

“This decision came as a shock to Western intellectuals and political observers. Hizb ut-Tahrir has been known for its non-militant, intellectual and political struggle for over seventy years,” it said.

It added: “Hizb ut-Tahrir has been working day and night to mobilize Muslim armed forces, including those of Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan and Egypt, in support of the Gaza and Palestine.”
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
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Yes, that's the crux of the case that South Africa submitted to the ICJ.
Its about intent.
They provided about a dozen pages of sourced quotes from Israeli leaders, from the PM to the army detailing genocidal intent.
They provided evidence of intent to commit genocide through bombs, starvation and disease, all of which Israel continues to do.

Even now Israel is only letting through a fraction of the food necessary for the people of Gaza to survive.

WFP official says 20 to 30 percent of needed aid entering Gaza
Arif Husain, the chief economist at the World Food Programme, has highlighted the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza, where he said no more than 30 percent of the aid needed for Gaza is entering the territory daily.


You've seen multiple examples of intent to destroy all schools, hospitals, most homes and all infrastructure in Gaza.
You've seen multiple examples of Israel intentionally killing doctors, destroying hospitals and blocking medicine.
You've seen multiple examples of reports of starvation and food being withheld.

That's all evidence of genocide.
Bibi's cabinet members have said a lot of very dumb stuff about artificial islands and forcing the Palis out of Gaza, but there is FA evidence that the IDF is committing genocide.
 
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