Post-dated cheques

[thompo69]

Then from now on and this is most important since your landlord is a dick, I would not pay the landlord in anything other then a money order from now on. I would get one on the day the rent is due so it as the date of the 15th on it but not pay it until a few weeks later. You have proof that you paid it on time, but let your landlord feel the pinch for a bit.

Doing this could get him evicted. The landlord is being a dick, no doubt, but that does not give a tenant the right to withhold rent. It doesn't matter what date is on the money order, it's when it's in the landlord's hands that matters. If rent is due on the 15th and is not paid by that date, on the 16th the landlord can file to have the tenant evicted for non-payment of rent. If the rent is paid before the notice period expires (10 or 15 days, can't remember), then the proceedings are stopped, but do this a few times and the application will be for habitual non-payment of rent and the tenant will be out.

 

[The Cunning Linguist]

you shouldn't be on this board if you are on such a tight budget. always have 6+ months of saving in your bank

You must have missed that in the original post, he says he has 10 K at the same bank, but in a savings account.

 

[Daddio]

you shouldn't be on this board if you are on such a tight budget. always have 6+ months of saving in your bank

I think I speak for most of us when I say bull fucking shit.

 

[Perry Mason]

Midas:

I don't have time for a long explanation, but a bank has no authority to negotiate or pay a cheque (or Bill of Exchange) before the date on which it is (due or) payable. No "ifs," "ands" or "buts."

If it does so, it is liable to you for any damages that may occur... and the various charges you incurred on other cheques are such damages.

Period.

So don't give up or cave in to their bullshit... because it is bullshit!

As last resort, sue in Small Claims Court and ask for exemplary damages to cover your expenses (lost time and/or wages) to bring it to court, etc. It is a case you cannot lose in Court.

Perry

 

[Fred Zed]

I spoke with my bank manager last time this happened, about 8 months ago, and he told me the date means nothing, unless it's "stale-dated". He simply tried to sell me products - more overdraft, LOC, etc.

Just got off the phone with CIBC Helpline and they gave me the party line: the date is agreement between me and the landlord -- he could deposit all ten remaining cheques and deposit them and the bank would process them. The bank doesn't give a shit.

yeah, I have on occasion accidentally deposited post- dated chqs and/or US chqs
and each time the bank cashed them, no problem. Maybe you want
to suggest to your landlord to instal interac at his rental office. It will save him and his tenants a lot of headaches.

 

[doggee_01]

i would also suggest contacting your local federal MP ...they love shit like this. the bank is in the wrong. maybe also the newspapers(silverman helps) just because the bank manager does not know his job their head office does!

 

[WhaWhaWha]

Good research aside, you could save a lot of time, money, arguments, court expenses, and drama by following these easy steps.

1. Close your account now and open a new account elsehwhere. Provide a copy of your account closure documentation to your landlord immediately. Include a letter thats tells him in no uncertain terms that his bundle of post dated cheques are now worthless and that you will be paying rent on or before each due date.

2. Write out individual rent cheques on the due date or pay by cash or money order and draft a simple receipt for your landlord to sign as the money changes hands.

3. Do not withhold or pay a day late.

It is your right to pay on time with any legal tender you see fit. Pennies are no longer considered legal tender but the following are:
* rolled nickels, dimes, quarters, loonies, and toonies (but don't do this unless you want to piss him off.)
* fives, tens, twenties, and fifties, or
* valid cheques, bank drafts, and money orders.

If the landlord objects, just use this handy phrase: "It's for your protection and mine."

The LTA does not require that anyone pay rent by post dated cheque. It's a convenient means used by reasonable people. Your landlord is too unreasonable to handle this kind of responsibility. The law is on your side and you can sue the bank the landlord and so on for a couple hundred dollars... but the costs to you would exceed this figure by hundreds more in court fees lost wages for time spent away from work, and aggravation.

 

[landscaper]

That is not true as at, but first thing I would do is put a stop payment on all cheques now.

I would also go to the bank, speak to the manage again but this time tell him to close all your accounts. See how fast he changes his tune.

Then from now on and this is most important since your landlord is a dick, I would not pay the landlord in anything other then a money order from now on. I would get one on the day the rent is due so it as the date of the 15th on it but not pay it until a few weeks later. You have proof that you paid it on time, but let your landlord feel the pinch for a bit.

This one could cause you a problem, while I appreciate the sentiment, your lease stipulates the date that your rent must be paid. If you don't pay it on that date all sorts of nasty can happen. Use a money order on or before the due date if the landlord complains explain it is fault because you can't trust him /her with postdates, if he/she complains I would start looking for other accomodations. The landlord is making up cash flow by depositing your cheques early.

Take the above mentioned post to the bank manager if nessicary staple it to his forehead, if he still gives you trouble go to his boss, he is putting the bank at risk with his actions they won't mlike that.

 

[Fred Zed]

That is not true as at, but first thing I would do is put a stop payment on all cheques now.

I would also go to the bank, speak to the manage again but this time tell him to close all your accounts. See how fast he changes his tune.

Then from now on and this is most important since your landlord is a dick, I would not pay the landlord in anything other then a money order from now on. I would get one on the day the rent is due so it as the date of the 15th on it but not pay it until a few weeks later. You have proof that you paid it on time, but let your landlord feel the pinch for a bit.

If the bank had bounced the chqs I think it would have cost K M just as much in returned item fees ?
The landlord is a dick but I think this bank is being reasonable. This institution
most likely has had a long-term relationship with K M. If he was a new client they would most likely not have honoured the chqs.

 

[Hangman]

Pennies are still legal tender.

Nevwrtheless, the landlord can refuse payment in coins, bills, or anything but his preferred payment method.

You can't 'force' him to accept payment in coins just to be a dick.

The means of payment must be agreed upon by both parties, and since the legal onus is on you to pay, you have little choice but to agree to pay by whatever method the landlord requires.

 

[Kya_Jean]

Doing this could get him evicted. The landlord is being a dick, no doubt, but that does not give a tenant the right to withhold rent. It doesn't matter what date is on the money order, it's when it's in the landlord's hands that matters. If rent is due on the 15th and is not paid by that date, on the 16th the landlord can file to have the tenant evicted for non-payment of rent. If the rent is paid before the notice period expires (10 or 15 days, can't remember), then the proceedings are stopped, but do this a few times and the application will be for habitual non-payment of rent and the tenant will be out.

Landlord can file all he wants, there would be no proof of when it actually went into his hands. M/O could be handed in on the 15th and the landlord not cash it until the 25th. He could lie and say that it was handed in on the 25th. Doesn't matter. The date on the M/O is the date that is accepted in any court unless there is a witness or video with proof of date to show that it was handed in later then the 15th.

This one could cause you a problem, while I appreciate the sentiment, your lease stipulates the date that your rent must be paid. If you don't pay it on that date all sorts of nasty can happen. Use a money order on or before the due date if the landlord complains explain it is fault because you can't trust him /her with postdates, if he/she complains I would start looking for other accommodations. The landlord is making up cash flow by depositing your cheques early.


Take the above mentioned post to the bank manager if nessicary staple it to his forehead, if he still gives you trouble go to his boss, he is putting the bank at risk with his actions they won't mlike that.

I can honestly say that if he did this once, maybe twice the landlord would stop his bullshit and cash the cheques at the proper time from now on.

The biggest BS in all this is the bank. Not the landlord. The M/O trick is just to show that you can be a prick too, but it the bank that needs to have something seriously done about it.

I would not only complain to my branch manger, but I would find out the bank that is was cashed at and complain to them.

 

[guelph]

I think I speak for most of us when I say bull fucking shit.

Me too
+1

 

[Aardvark154]

Just as an FYI for those posters outside Canada, what MyJohnson, Perry and others have posted is not good law in either the U.S. or the U.K.

In the U.S. this is covered by § 4-401 of the Uniform Commercial Code, and for nationaly chartered banks by regulations of the Comptroller of the Currency which permit nationaly chartered banks to cash a cheque prior to the date written on it.

In both the U.S. and the U.K. any loss suffered with post dated cheques must be addressed by the Payer with the Payee.


Again for anyone reading quickly this is not so in Canada, read the above posts.

 

[thompo69]

Landlord can file all he wants, there would be no proof of when it actually went into his hands. M/O could be handed in on the 15th and the landlord not cash it until the 25th. He could lie and say that it was handed in on the 25th. Doesn't matter. The date on the M/O is the date that is accepted in any court unless there is a witness or video with proof of date to show that it was handed in later then the 15th.

This is completely wrong. The date on the money order proves when the money order was purchased, and not anything else. Purchasing a money order does not pay your rent, giving it to the landlord does, and unless you can produce something that proves you have done that, such as a receipt from your landlord (which he is required by law to give you), you can't prove shit in court.

 

[King Midas]

This has all been very helpful

Thanks a lot, especially MyJohnson. Excellent research.

I'm at a bit of an impasse. The landlord is out of town and his nephew (aspiring lawyer) is running the office in his absence but has no authority to do anything meaningful except tell me he's sorry. I have insisted that he return my cheques OR I will cancel all of the remaining ones and deduct the fees for that, as well as the $195 from the Aug chequed. That won't stop all those bounced cheques from affect my credit rating. Pissed about that too.

All that aside, I don't believe he was trying to fuck me. He (and the nephew) have exhibited lousy administrative skills. He appreciates that I am a great tenant, don't ask for much and keep his place in great shape. He's simply not organized.

Nevertheless, I am looking forward to buying ASAP.

 

[sibannac]

I

The biggest BS in all this is the bank. Not the landlord. The M/O trick is just to show that you can be a prick too, but it the bank that needs to have something seriously done about it.

I would not only complain to my branch manger, but I would find out the bank that is was cashed at and complain to them.

You can complain about the Bank all you want but unless you complain and request a return within one day there is nothing they can do. Also, no where in the CPA does the Bank even have to verify the dates on cheques deposited. The only thing that is stipulated is that if a post dated cheque is returned NSF in error, the Bank is responsible for return fees.

Now back to the Landlord, there is absolutely no requirement under the Act that you provide the Landlord post dated cheques. The only requirement by the renter is to pay the rent once a month or once a week (only two types of non commercial leases.) and that the Landlord can only collect once a month or once a week, depending on the type of lease.

This Landlord sounds like a dick so I would put him on month to month after the lease expires and get a reciept any time you give him/her a cheque.

This is really an easy problem to solve --- tell the landlord that if it happens again you will stop payment on the remaining post dated items and will not be responsible for any of his fees, do this in writing and by some kind of certified mail that you get a delivery date. Then you give a cheque once a month.

Personally if the landlord is that stuck for cash that he/she needs to pull a stiunt like this, then I would move.

 

[stinkynuts]

Why not simply make the funds availale on the first, in anticipation of him cashing the checks? If you have the funds, it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[thompo69]

Thanks a lot, especially MyJohnson. Excellent research.

I'm at a bit of an impasse. The landlord is out of town and his nephew (aspiring lawyer) is running the office in his absence but has no authority to do anything meaningful except tell me he's sorry. I have insisted that he return my cheques OR I will cancel all of the remaining ones and deduct the fees for that, as well as the $195 from the Aug chequed. That won't stop all those bounced cheques from affect my credit rating. Pissed about that too.

All that aside, I don't believe he was trying to fuck me. He (and the nephew) have exhibited lousy administrative skills. He appreciates that I am a great tenant, don't ask for much and keep his place in great shape. He's simply not organized.

Nevertheless, I am looking forward to buying ASAP.

Keep in mind that you cannot unilaterally deduct from the rent, even though he may very well owe you money. If you rack up $195 in charges and pay him $195 less in rent to recoup those charges, congratulations, you haven't paid your rent and are liable to be evicted if he chooses to pursue it.

The only way you can reduce what you pay to the landlordis by an order of the Landlord Tenant Board. The only way to get money from your Landlord is in court.

 

[King Midas]

you shouldn't be on this board if you are on such a tight budget. always have 6+ months of saving in your bank

It's got nothing to do with my budget. I don't see the point in keeping kegs of money in an account that accrues no interest. If he had presented the cheque on the 15th, as agreed, there would have been no problem.

 

[thompo69]

Technically, you're right but practically-speaking, if he's negligent for depositing a post-dated cheque (assuming that's in the lease agreement) prematurely, then he's broken a promise that the rent is not due until the 15th and has caused you to incur damages (bank charges). So you demand that he re-imburse you or else you will set-off the cost of HIS mistake from your replacement cheque. I'm sure some court would be on the side of the tenant on that one, and don't think the landlord would evict an otherwise good tenant for what a court would reasonably conclude was the Landlord's mistake and rule in favour of the tenant.

If a tenant bounces a cheque that was properly deposited by the landlord, I'm sure the landlord would try to recover those costs if not have a penalty clause in the lease for that. Why can't the tenant have similar relief?

Because the tenant doesn't have a penalty clause in the lease. While it may sound fair for a tenant to take matters into his own hands, it is not within the law. This is not limited to landlord/tenant matters, many "do it yourself" solutions to legal disputes only end up making the legal problems worse.