Pistorius, the blade runner, shot his girlfriend?

mandrill

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So far, no one has tried to figure out what SA law is. Presumably he tried to kill SOMEONE in the toilet. Under Canadian law, the identity of the person killed would not be legally relevant to guilt. There was no immediate issue of self defence and in any event, undue force was used. So murder is murder - whether it was an intruder who was killed or Steenkamp. And it was certainly premeditated in the sense that it was a deliberate and calculated attempt to shoot another human.

So the only legally relevant fact is whether SA has a variant of Florida's law justifying shooting of ANY intruder, regardless of the degree of risk posed by that person. If it does, then Pistorius is attempting to raise a valid legal defence. If not, then whatever he says re Steenkap is not legally relevant.
 

Rockslinger

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One of his bail conditions is that he cannot legally own a gun. That means future GF's can take a piss in the middle of the night without fear of being killed with a legal gun.
 

fun-guy

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So far, no one has tried to figure out what SA law is. Presumably he tried to kill SOMEONE in the toilet. Under Canadian law, the identity of the person killed would not be legally relevant to guilt. There was no immediate issue of self defence and in any event, undue force was used. So murder is murder - whether it was an intruder who was killed or Steenkamp. And it was certainly premeditated in the sense that it was a deliberate and calculated attempt to shoot another human.

So the only legally relevant fact is whether SA has a variant of Florida's law justifying shooting of ANY intruder, regardless of the degree of risk posed by that person. If it does, then Pistorius is attempting to raise a valid legal defence. If not, then whatever he says re Steenkap is not legally relevant.
So can you tell me what the difference is between murder and manslaughter? I always thought murder was a violent act to deprive someone of their live in a malicious way, but manslaughter is taking the life of another person without malice. Pisto killed Reeva but in his ind he had malicious intent to kill the intruder so it was an accident in his mind knowing it was his girlfriend he shot, so he had no intent of killing his girlfriend. So what is it?
 

alexmst

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So far, no one has tried to figure out what SA law is. Presumably he tried to kill SOMEONE in the toilet. Under Canadian law, the identity of the person killed would not be legally relevant to guilt. There was no immediate issue of self defence and in any event, undue force was used. So murder is murder - whether it was an intruder who was killed or Steenkamp. And it was certainly premeditated in the sense that it was a deliberate and calculated attempt to shoot another human.

So the only legally relevant fact is whether SA has a variant of Florida's law justifying shooting of ANY intruder, regardless of the degree of risk posed by that person. If it does, then Pistorius is attempting to raise a valid legal defence. If not, then whatever he says re Steenkap is not legally relevant.
Cape Town South Africa Newspaper article

Is shooting an intruder justified?

May 25 2004 at 09:59am
By David Yutar

It's the middle of the night and you and your family are fast asleep.

You awaken to the sound of glass breaking, grab your firearm and go to investigate. In the kitchen you find a masked man and point your gun at him, asking him what he's doing. He doesn't answer but approaches you and you shoot and wound him.

Is your action justified in South African law?

Our law says that you are permitted to defend yourself, or another person, against an unlawful attack that has already begun or is imminent.

The attack may be against your life or body, or even against property, either your own or that of somebody else such as a family member or even a complete stranger.

Since this defence allows for more than merely protecting yourself, it is called private defence, rather than self-defence.


The law also allows you to shoot in private defence.

Where, for example, a person breaks into your home and points a firearm at you, you would be entitled to shoot, if there is no other less harmful way to ward off the attack.

If you don't know whether he is armed or not, whether you are allowed to shoot depends on the circumstances.

Whether you would be entitled to shoot to kill is a matter of much debate among lawyers.

Even where there is a real attack against you or a member of your family or a stranger, the right to shoot to wound or kill is not an absolute right.

Even where only your property is being threatened, in very limited circumstances you may be justified in shooting to kill and there are older cases in our law that support such a right.

However, since the advent of the Constitution and its emphasis on the right to life, the right to shoot to kill in order to defend property alone has become more problematic.

Although there need be no absolute proportionality between the harm threatened and the defence measures you take, where there is a clear disproportionality, your action would in all likelihood be unlawful.

Even unlawful conduct may go unpunished if it is established that the accused was unaware that he was acting unlawfully.
 

mandrill

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Well, there you go. 4 shots fired through a closed door at a barricaded "intruder" instead of calling the security service and waiting until they arrive. Clearly disproportionate force.

And "unaware that he was acting unlawfully" probably means that the shooter did not know the full and detailed actual circumstances and felt (perhaps wrongly, but not unreasonably) that he was in dire danger. AFAIK, no country allows mistake of law as a valid legal defence. So if you misinterpret the legal provisions, that's tough tit.
 

Rockslinger

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George Zimmerman said he shot because he was getting the crap beaten out of him and feared for his life. Was he justified?
 

Eddie401

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Just about 2 miles past appropriate
When I take a really smelly crap the worst thing that happens is I get yelled at and someone cracks the door and throws a can of spray at me. This seems like an extreme reaction.
 

Aardvark154

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So you can tell me what the difference is between murder and manslaughter?
There are two types of manslaughter Voluntary and Involuntary:

Voluntary manslaughter: Basically a crime of mitigation:

There was provocation which would cause a reasonable person to lose self-control, and there was not a cooling off period: example you walk in on your spouse and paramour in flagrante delicto and shoot and kill them, better yet she says something demeaning to your manhood before you shoot.

Imperfect Self-Defense: a person who acted in self-defense with an honest but unreasonable belief that deadly force was necessary (only some jurisdictions allow this)

Diminished Capacity: Basically a variation of the insanity defence (only some Jurisdictions allow this) You killed without justification, but also without any evil intent.

Involuntary manslaughter

The death results from serious negligence, or serious recklessness. There must be an failure to act when there is a duty to act/U]. Typically this is professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment.

Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either express or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention. It is normally divided into two categories; constructive manslaughter and criminally negligent manslaughter, both of which involve criminal liability.

Vehicular manslaughter involves death which occurs because of criminal negligence, or a violation of traffic safety laws.

In some jurisdictions: misdemeanor manslaughter which is a lesser version of felony murder, a person who causes the death of another in the course of committing a misdemeanor.
 

Rockslinger

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Vehicular manslaughter involves death which occurs because of criminal negligence, or a violation of traffic safety laws.
There was a case in Western Canada where a dude drove through a stop sign and hit and killed 2 people. He was found guilty of going through a stop sign.
 

Aardvark154

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There was a case in Western Canada where a dude drove through a stop sign and hit and killed 2 people. He was found guilty of going through a stop sign.
It depends upon the circumstances: was the sun in his eyes, was there a bush in front of the stop sign, was he going 120 in a 50 zone when he "blew the stop sign." Towards one side merely Failure to Stop at a Stop Sign on the other Motor Vehicle Manslaughter.
 

simon482

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just wondering why this and a few other cases are even going to court. he was caught red handed (literally) shouldn't matter why. he should be in jail and not getting out (according to your law) according to my law when i become dictator he would already be dead.
 

Aardvark154

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Well, there you go. 4 shots fired through a closed door at a barricaded "intruder" instead of calling the security service and waiting until they arrive.
I agree where was the imminence of the attack?

That said two senior lawyers I very much respect have both said in conversation that they would place money on his being acquitted.
 
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larry

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i would bet on acquittal also. totally incompetent police work has made the prosecutors job very tough.
 

mandrill

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I agree where was the imminence of the attack?

That said two senior lawyers I very much respect have both said conversation that they would place money on his being acquitted.
Judge alone? That's interesting. Are they South Africans?
 

mandrill

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Neither of them (so it is general rather than local knowledge based).
It would be hard to judge without some knowledge of SA law and also SA customs and expectations of how someone reasonably should have behaved in Pistorius' situation. Throw in that he's a national celebrity and factor in that we don't know if the judiciary in SA is corrupt or "influence-able" or not.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the domestic violence angle is a red herring. It really doesn't matter legally who he shot in that bathroom. OTOH, the fact that he killed another celebrity and a well-known, well-liked and beautiful woman has to factor in as well.

All in all, a very interesting case.
 

mandrill

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Oagre, they both see it as the O.J. Simpson trial of South Africa with much the same dynamic.
Well, good luck to 'em, The issue in OJ was ID. And race, of course. Neither of those 2 issues is present here.
 

Aardvark154

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Well, good luck to 'em, The issue in OJ was ID. And race, of course. Neither of those 2 issues is present here.
Of course as well as dislike of sending someone who was at the time a very popular sports figure "up the river."

While the O.J. Jury was an amazingly unintelligent, basically the verdict was jury nullification.

I suspect that if they had the Scots Law verdict of Not Proven available, they probably would have given it.
 
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