Pickering Angels

Pistorius, the blade runner, shot his girlfriend?

smiley1437

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Oct 30, 2005
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Defence counsel MUST do it. It's an exception to solicitor-client privelege. As soon as you know about the evidence, you have to contact the Crown.
Thanks for clearing that up, I appreciate it

I was getting a fairly different perspective when I came across this:

"When the Lawyer Knows the Client is Guilty: David Mellinkoff's 'The Concience of a Lawyer', Legal Ethics, Literature, and Popular Culture"
http://www.lsuc.on.ca/media/sith_colloquium_asimow_michael.pdf

but I suppose that is US law.
 

Aardvark154

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Jan 19, 2006
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Thanks for clearing that up, I appreciate it

I was getting a fairly different perspective when I came across this:

"When the Lawyer Knows the Client is Guilty: David Mellinkoff's 'The Concience of a Lawyer', Legal Ethics, Literature, and Popular Culture"
http://www.lsuc.on.ca/media/sith_colloquium_asimow_michael.pdf

but I suppose that is US law.
From a quick glance your article is really about your professional obligations when you know a client intends to perjure themselves and present false testimony to the tribunal.

That is different from when you have evidence which implicates your client (and is what Oagre posted about and was the situation in the Bernardo Case).

This is not always simple, for instance if you have obtained the physical evidence through protected client communications although you must turn it over, you must also protect your client's identity and not reveal statements made by the client or their agent. However, you have a duty not to reveal incriminating evidence which you have merely observed as a result of a client communication. For instance the location of a getaway car or the body of a victim.

See a U.S. case below dealing with this issue.

http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.d...iew=view.do&viewParam_name=HitchvArizona.html

This can become morally heavy territory there was a case several years ago in I believe New York State, where the client (who was imprisoned) reveled to counsel information which exonerated another prisoner, but refused to allow them to disclose it even after his death. They finally decided to do so, but faced being disbarred as a result.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
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Thanks for clearing that up, I appreciate it

I was getting a fairly different perspective when I came across this:

"When the Lawyer Knows the Client is Guilty: David Mellinkoff's 'The Concience of a Lawyer', Legal Ethics, Literature, and Popular Culture"
http://www.lsuc.on.ca/media/sith_colloquium_asimow_michael.pdf

but I suppose that is US law.
US law appears to be different. In Canada, if the lawyer is in possession of evidence that will convict the client, he/ she must give it to the Crown. This means actual physical evidence, such as a tape or murder weapon. This does not mean oral evidence, like a confession. If a client confesses guilt, a Canadian lawyer cannot put the client on the stand, but must restrict him/ herself to making the Crown prove its case, without attempting to place the blame on an innocent third party. I guess this means asking questions like "Are you sure you can really recognize the assailant? Are you sure you really had a good look?" etc.

If the client insists on lying directly or by implication - i.e a line of questioning while cross-examining a Crown witness - defence counsel must withdraw from the case.
 

Rockslinger

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Apr 24, 2005
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I dont think he's really a flight risk though (so long as they confiscate his blades)
Yeah, it's not like he is Julian Assange or Roman Polanski. They are all upstanding citizens with impeccable character and integrity. (Gallow humour for those slow on the uptake.)
 

SchlongConery

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Jan 28, 2013
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Wow, you get bail after a domestic violence homicide in South Afrika?

I guess MrsCaLoki will be suggesting that they set sail for some GENUINE South Afrikan "diamonds" she is planning on in this thread "Is this sick or Romantic?" LOL!
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
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From a quick glance your article is really about your professional obligations when you know a client intends to perjure themselves and present false testimony to the tribunal.

That is different from when you have evidence which implicates your client (and is what Oagre posted about and was the situation in the Bernardo Case).

This is not always simple, for instance if you have obtained the physical evidence through protected client communications although you must turn it over, you must also protect your client's identity and not reveal statements made by the client or their agent. However, you have a duty not to reveal incriminating evidence which you have merely observed as a result of a client communication. For instance the location of a getaway car or the body of a victim.

See a U.S. case below dealing with this issue.

http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.d...iew=view.do&viewParam_name=HitchvArizona.html

This can become morally heavy territory there was a case several years ago in I believe New York State, where the client (who was imprisoned) reveled to counsel information which exonerated another prisoner, but refused to allow them to disclose it even after his death. They finally decided to do so, but faced being disbarred as a result.
Thanks for the additional notes. Looks like this area is even more complicated than I thought.
 

Aardvark154

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Jan 19, 2006
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US law appears to be different. In Canada, if the lawyer is in possession of evidence that will convict the client, he/ she must give it to the Crown. This means actual physical evidence, such as a tape or murder weapon. This does not mean oral evidence, like a confession. If a client confesses guilt, a Canadian lawyer cannot put the client on the stand, but must restrict him/ herself to making the Crown prove its case, without attempting to place the blame on an innocent third party. I guess this means asking questions like "Are you sure you can really recognize the assailant? Are you sure you really had a good look?" etc.

If the client insists on lying directly or by implication - i.e a line of questioning while cross-examining a Crown witness - defence counsel must withdraw from the case.
These posts have been going past each other, but this is all very much the same in both Canada and the U.S.
 

Aardvark154

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Jan 19, 2006
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Another factor to consider, is that the jail where Oscar Pistorius would have been held in pre-trial detention is a Hell Hole. It absolutely makes the worst place in the U.S., Canada or the U.K. an absolute paradise by comparison. Indeed such a place would be the subject of constant diatribes here on TERB.
 

IM469

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2012
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Another factor to consider, is that the jail where Oscar Pistorius would have been held in pre-trial detention is a Hell Hole. .
Sorry, if I find it hard to shed any tears for this asshole. If there was any question whether Pistorius shot his girlfriend, bail could be considered & flight risk assessed but this is not the case. Standing outside a locked door with no risk, he shot to kill into the toilet. This lethal action killed his girlfriend in the same certainty as if it were a cowering 12 year old autograph seeker.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Dec 27, 2010
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fun-guy

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Jun 29, 2005
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Sorry, if I find it hard to shed any tears for this asshole. If there was any question whether Pistorius shot his girlfriend, bail could be considered & flight risk assessed but this is not the case. Standing outside a locked door with no risk, he shot to kill into the toilet. This lethal action killed his girlfriend in the same certainty as if it were a cowering 12 year old autograph seeker.
Although most would agree with you, me included, that's not the issue. I agree he shot to kill into the toilet room and hopefully the trial will confirm that and he'll get his due.

However, the judge in the bail hearing had to determine if death was premeditated murder as initially put forth by the prosecution side. This is where the crux of the problem lies, the judge had reasonable doubt that it may not have been premeditated so he let Pisto walk, for now. The judge isn't saying he doesn't think Pisto didn't kill her, it's the doubt of premeditated murder. The prosecution screwed up on this big time IMO.

Personally, and I say this is only my personal theory, Pisto was high on his testosterone injections, they had an argument over something, and he was in a bit of rage fueled by the testosterone and he lost it for the moment and shot her. After, he realized what he had done, panicked and tried to come up with some alibi that could fit the scenario, but his alibi is full of holes. The prosecution will provide way more evidence during the trial that will make Pisto a liar. I predict he will be eventually convicted of manslaughter in his trial, but not sure of the sentence.
 
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