Perpetual motion machine at work ???

[Yoga Face]

For Yoga...

The Law of Conservation of Energy (excluding nuclear reactions) states that energy is not created or destroyed, merely changed into other forms. That means that any electrical energy gained would be lost from the system. Pick up one of the hand held generators and see how much kinetic energy is needed to create the small electrical potential required to power a LED light or emergency radio..

Agree

In a system using conventional magnets would end up canceling out any benefit. Although the magnet could attract a steel ball and cause motion, when the ball passed the magnet, the attractive force would result in deceleration of the ball. .

Which is why the magnets are moves by mechanical levers to stop this effect

It is also know that when energy is transformed, some percent of it is essentially lost (changed into forms that are no practical use). Noise, air resistance, heat, (and the creation of electric energy) are all forms of energy being taken away from the kinetic energy of the ball. That means for the machine to continue working energy must be added (and to generate electricity more energy would have to be added than the electrical energy generated..

True. Use bigger magnets.

I preferred the hoax of cold fusion
.

Me too

 

[Yoga Face]

I saw these machines on science channel and it was never suggested they were a hoax


My question is where does the energy come from that moves a compass needle ????


Wherever it came from has now surrendered an equal amount of energy so no free lunch is implied just transference of energy/mass

Did it come from the magnetic field ?????


The atoms of the needle ????

The power of magnets must come from within as it is not the earth's magnetic field that repels or attracts them to each other. I think it is the atomic alignment within the magnets that was created by the poles when the magnets were created from lava that does the work so this alignment must weaken as it is used or there would be a free lunch

 

[Yoga Face]

The horseshoe magnets are mechanically pulled away from the steel ball as it approaches, the magnetic attraction between the ball and the magnet accelerates it along the path. Newton's law of motion and conservation of energy dictate that an equal and opposite force to the pull of the magnet was created... and absorbed by the magnets mount and passed on to the base on which it sits.
...

Good point. Magnets seem to defy the laws of Newton and Thermodynamics

Where does the magnets energy, to attract or repel, come from and as you point out where did the opposite reaction go ???

Another way to "prove" that it creates would be to let it pick up speed...

Excellent point. Why does not the device keep getting faster ?????

 

[KBear]

My question is where does the energy come from that moves a compass needle ????

When you unlock a compass needle, it moves to north and stops, but if you want to see the needle move again, you would have to move it off north, adding energy, and then release it again. So, the energy comes from you moving the needle off north.

 

[caseyx]

My question is where does the energy come from that moves a compass needle ????

This is akin to asking where the energy comes from when you drop something and it accelerates toward the earth as it falls. Potential energy of the object in the magnetic field is converted into kinetic energy. As KBear pointed out, the potential energy comes from whatever first caused the seperation between where the object is and where the field draws it.

 

[basketcase]

Good point. Magnets seem to defy the laws of Newton and Thermodynamics
...

Um, no.

You may want to try reading up on magnets. They operate similar to Gravity and electric forces though the calculations for magnetic field strength (or force or energy) are more complicated due to the nature of magnets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnets (or even better, pick up a physics textbook).

You may also look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtons_laws and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics and see that the scientific world clearly sees that magnets fit into those laws.

 

[Mencken]

Just another perpetual motion hoax. Just because you see a video on the internet does not mean it is real.

A bit like the cell phones popping popcorn.

 

[torontojohn]

Which is why the magnets are moves by mechanical levers to stop this effect

If the magnets have to be moved to prevent energy loss (and assuming that's actually going to work) you're still using energy to move the magnets.

The only perpetual motion machine I've ever heard of that I can believe MIGHT somehow magically work would be a nano-scale casimir effect wheel, where very small plates slip in and out of the casimir-effect areas into 'free' areas for repositioning. Even with that, I'm sure that I'm missing something, and even if not, that the energy obtained wouldn't be enough to actually transmit anywhere to do work.

 

[buttercup]

You may want to try reading up on magnets. They operate similar to Gravity and electric forces though the calculations for magnetic field strength (or force or energy) are more complicated due to the nature of magnets..

First, as to the gadget illustrated. It must be powered by some hidden battery or other power source. (It is cleverly hidden, of course.)

You cannot power mechanical motion by magnets, as such. Magnets do not store energy, that you can tap into, like a battery. You can move objects into and out of a magnetic field, and it takes energy to do that, but that energy is not supplied by the "decay" of the magnets. Magnets decay or deteriorate, but they do not supply energy.

Now here's an interesting thing. If you magnetize a steel bar, and then just leave it, it retains its magnetism longer than if you are constantly moving iron objects towards and away from it. The power of the magnet to attract iron objects decays or deteriorates -- and it decays faster, the more you use the magnet. Also, an electrostatic force field decays after a while, just as a magnetic force field decays after a while.

But the gravitational attraction between the earth and the moon remains constant. Their attractive force upon each other depends only on the product of their masses. The attractive force does not get used up, over time. Gravity never gets "used up", not even slightly, with use.

Gravity is perpetual. But you can't use it as an energy supply.

Equally, the forces that hold atoms and molecules and crystals together never get used up, at all.

Come on, Terbites. Why does magnetism and electrostatic attraction/repulsioin decay, but gravity and atomic attraction/repulsion does not decay?

 

[caseyx]

Come on, Terbites. Why does magnetism and electrostatic attraction/repulsioin decay, but gravity and atomic attraction/repulsion does not decay?

Electrostatic attraction/repulsion doesn't decay. Charge is conserved. There's no decay of magnetic forces either for the same reason.

A magnetized object will lose it's proerties over time but it's not because magnetism itself decays. In a simplified sense, ferrous material is composed of many tiny magnets. If their magnetic poles are oriented in random directions you won't observe any over all magnetic force. To turn a piece of steel into a magnet you apply a strong external magnetic field that lines up all of these tiny internal magnets so that they point in the same direction. But this alignment isn't permanent; random motion of the atoms in the material will eventually cause misalignment of the consituent magnetic poles, causing decay of the external magnetic field.

(Roughly speaking anyway.)

 

[torontojohn]

Somewhere along the way our education system has failed miserably.

I mean, I know I'm a nerd/geek/whatever... but I learned about magnets and gravity etc in grade school.

The fact that these scams and hoaxes get taken seriously shows that as a society we are failing to teach our children some pretty significant basics about how the world works, and a more general failure to teach and encourage critical thinking.

So many people are content to wait for someone else to provide the answer rather than try and puzzle it out themselves.

 

[Yoga Face]

Just another perpetual motion hoax. Just because you see a video on the internet does not mean it is real.

A bit like the cell phones popping popcorn.

Actually, I saw the devices on a science show (PBS)

They never stated they were a hoax (not much of a science program I guess)

The most interesting one was a ferris wheel that used weights

A simple lever would push the weights outside the wheel , at the top of the spin just before descent. At the bottom a lever would slide them to the inside of the wheel just before ascent

So the machine was using the force of gravity as it was heavier on the descending side

The damn thing had been spinning for a year

The only explanation given by a debunking scientist was that wind or the heat of the sun was somehow making it work

It is briefly shown at the end of this video

 

[Yoga Face]

This is akin to asking where the energy comes from when you drop something and it accelerates toward the earth as it falls. Potential energy of the object in the magnetic field is converted into kinetic energy. As KBear pointed out, the potential energy comes from whatever first caused the seperation between where the object is and where the field draws it.

That must have been a eureka moment for the chap who figured it out

How does the magnetic force travel ??? Probably travels as a wave/particle as light behaves like both


I wonder if the laws of physics are by chance or if they are necessary to be the way they are in order to create a universe ?

 

[basketcase]

That must have been a eureka moment for the chap who figured it out

How does the magnetic force travel ??? Probably travels as a wave/particle as light behaves like both


I wonder if the laws of physics are by chance or if they are necessary to be the way they are in order to create a universe ?

Magnetic forces don't travel. They just are where they are (unless you mean electromagnetic waves such as light but that is something quite different). I would seriously suggest doing some reading about the science as we know it before continuing in a scientific discussion about it. That is not meant as an insult but it is impossible to have a discussion where the people involved understand things differently.

As for the esoteric question, either some god made the universe with laws of physics that suited it or our universe developed the way it is because of the way that physics works.

 

[torontojohn]

Magnetic forces don't travel. They just are where they are (unless you mean electromagnetic waves such as light but that is something quite different).

Actually, since moving a magnet in space moves the associated magnetic field, magnetism DOES travel, and therefore will require some kind of mechanism for doing so.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that like light and gravity, magnetism travels as a wave/particle and travels at 'c'.