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Passive income from dividends. Is it a mistake?

themaxx

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I wrote the LATTER term is used in textbooks. Search again--you'll find it. Or just type it in google.

Your analogy of animals or statement of, "While there is nothing wrong with capital gains, and capital losses can serve a purpose, neither are dividends."

You get a dividend, or you sell shares--what do you end up with? Money. They're treated differently for tax purposes, but, point remains, ultimately you end up with money. Thinking dividends are "special" or "free money" just illustrates the mental accounting bias I mentioned.

As mentioned...

"You don't wanna sell shares to create your own dividends , BUT when a company pays a dividend, its share price falls by the dividend (this is mathematically indisputable). Getting a dividend in a down market is EXACTLY the same thing as selling off an equivalent dollar amount of stock in the same down market (this is mathematically indisputable)."

Or as Prof Samuel M. Hartzmark put it, getting a dividend is like "taking out money out of your left pocket [from the share price] then putting it into your right pocket [the dividend]." He wrote papers on dividends, but nobody here is gonna read them--he was interviewed and talks about dividends starting around the 38 min mark [1].

"If you have to sell an asset to generate cash flow, you've probably fucked bigtime." Uh, yeah, sure. Tell that to the wealthiest people on the planet.

[1]
Friend, I searched both terms "self-made" and "homemade" dividends, as well as the entire cockamamie "theory of dividend irrelevence" in several of my actual university level and CFA textbooks - nuthin' there. I'm sure those terms are probably all over the internet, but I don't really rely on the internet for something as important as my finances.
Ex-dividend and cum dividend are well known, unlike this Prof Hartzman. If you could point me to his published academic papers, as befitting a Professor, I'd gladly read them, as well as any actual university finance textbook that discusses "homemade dividends".
Here's an interesting fact - you can google my ex-wife, and you'll find that shes a bestselling author, and one of her books was glowingly reviewed by a top official at the US Treasury Dept. Thats all on Google........except that she's not a bestselling author, or a successful entrepeneur. Its bullshit, like alot of stuff on the internet.
Anyhow, you follow whatever strategy you wish, & I wish you the best of luck in whatever you're doing.
 
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sprite09

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Friend, I searched both terms "self-made" and "homemade" dividends, as well as the entire cockamamie "theory of dividend irrelevence" in several of my actual university level and CFA textbooks - nuthin' there. I'm sure those terms are probably all over the internet, but I don't really rely on the internet for something as important as my finances.
Ex-dividend and cum dividend are well known, unlike this Prof Hartzman. If you could point me to his published academic papers, as befitting a Professor, I'd gladly read them, as well as any actual university finance textbook that discusses "homemade dividends".
Here's an interesting fact - you can google my ex-wife, and you'll find that shes a bestselling author, and one of her books was glowingly reviewed by a top official at the US Treasury Dept. Thats all on Google........except that she's not a bestselling author, or a successful entrepeneur. Its bullshit, like alot of stuff on the internet.
Anyhow, you follow whatever strategy you wish, & I wish you the best of luck in whatever you're doing.
Bro, are you implying you studied finance and seriously never heard of homemade dividends/dividend irrelevance? Start with an entry-level corporate textbook--it's there (e.g., Fundamentals of Corporate Finance by Ross et al, or Fundamentals of Corporate Finance by Berk et al).

I'll even give you a site where you can download these textbooks for free:


Hartzman:



"whatever strategy you wish, & I wish you the best of luck in whatever you're doing."

Yes, concur, despite a potentially better way of investing from an objective and rational standpoint, it still might not be someone's personal optimal strategy because it might not be psychologically optimal for the individual (e.g., some people just can't pull the trigger to sell shares); goes against their beliefs, etc.
 
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HungSowel

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On average the total returns on pure equity stocks is better than pure dividend stocks. If you factor in tax treatment of capital gains vs qualified dividends, pure equity stocks still put more money in your pocket on average.

If reliable cashflow is the priority then dividend stocks have their place but GICs and bonds are more reliable albeit lower total returns on average and tax treatment on interest is usually the worst.

Now might be a good time to get into dividend stocks like BCE and Enbridge as those companies require intense capital investment that is financed through debt and interest rates are falling. You could be collecting that sweet 8.65% BCE dividend and the stock appreciates significantly from the drop in interest rates.
 

themaxx

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Bro, are you implying you studied finance and seriously never heard of homemade dividends/dividend irrelevance? Start with an entry-level corporate textbook--it's there (e.g., Fundamentals of Corporate Finance by Ross et al, or Fundamentals of Corporate Finance by Berk et al).

I'll even give you a site where you can download these textbooks for free:


Hartzman:



"whatever strategy you wish, & I wish you the best of luck in whatever you're doing."

Yes, concur, despite a potentially better way of investing from an objective and rational standpoint, it still might not be someone's personal optimal strategy because it might not be psychologically optimal for the individual (e.g., some people just can't pull the trigger to sell shares); goes against their beliefs, etc.
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Thanks Sprite for providing that info & i mean that sincerely, not sarcastically.
I pulled some books off my shelves; the stack on the right DO refer to "homemade dividends", while the stack in the center and left, do NOT.
The image isnt very clear, but, except for "The Intelligent Investor" and "A random walk down Wall Street" (both top of center stack & IMO required reading for anyone wanting to try investing independently), these are all either university textbooks and the CSC book (all approx 35-40 years old), and a few more recent CFA books. The books that reference 'homemade dividends" are, as you pointed out, Corporate Finance books, while the ones that don't are Investment Science, capital market functionality, portfolio management, etc. And even at that, "homemade dividends" IMO gets just a passing reference, meriting barely a paragraph in either book pn Corporate Finance. Maybe more recent textbooks pay greater attention to "homemade dividends"?
While the subjects of Corporate Finance and Investments, portfolio mgmt, etc etc are all extremely closely interrelated, there are differences (like humans and chimps, lets say). While I would NOT apply the "Homemade dividend" theory to my investment decisions, I won't try to dissuade others if they wish to do so. If you think this gives you an edge in investment decisions, AND you enjoy practicing it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Best of luck to you!!
Regards, Maxx
 

Ceiling Cat

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themaxx

I own some where my dividend Yield on Cost is over 100% - I get my total original investment, and then some, back every year. But thats not the norm. I do have dividend stocks, but to compound to 100%+ takes years.
Banks, BCE, ENB, for example, are all likely within 35-50% YOC, because I've held them a for awhile, generally only averaged down rather than DCA, and management of these such companies tend to grow their dividends 3-5% annually. Compounding is the 8th wonder of the world, as per Einstein......Albert Einstein, renowned smart-guy, not Bob Einstein, aka Super Dave Osborne. If we calculated in capital appreciation, then the total return on some of these is 1800-2200%.
If you enjoy what you're doing, continue doing it. If you dont mind the volatility, risk, and time required as an active trader, you could be successful at it. Volitility and risk is what it is all about. if you do a search you will find a thread where a U-man panic sold his BTE because it dropped 8-9%, I recognized the stock to be good and bought BTE. I made money when the stock regained the 8-9% and additional profit when it achieved a greater height. I'd go so far as to recommend that you consider a career in it. Why work for someone else under pressure when I can do it for myself? Personally, I like the freedom my method has given me. But all the research backs up that buy & hold (quality stocks) over the long term, is the best strategy for long-term, significant returns.
[/QUOTE]

I also buy and hold. some for longer and some for a few days, why wait a year for the same profit when you can have it in a few days? There is no stock that moves up or down in a straight line. I take advantage of the peaks and valleys. As I have demonstrated in the BCE thread and the
Canadian hedged American companies thread, I can approximate the peaks and valleys and take advantage of the situation.

................some people say you can not time the market.
 
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sprite09

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View attachment 345956
Thanks Sprite for providing that info & i mean that sincerely, not sarcastically.
I pulled some books off my shelves; the stack on the right DO refer to "homemade dividends", while the stack in the center and left, do NOT.
The image isnt very clear, but, except for "The Intelligent Investor" and "A random walk down Wall Street" (both top of center stack & IMO required reading for anyone wanting to try investing independently), these are all either university textbooks and the CSC book (all approx 35-40 years old), and a few more recent CFA books. The books that reference 'homemade dividends" are, as you pointed out, Corporate Finance books, while the ones that don't are Investment Science, capital market functionality, portfolio management, etc. And even at that, "homemade dividends" IMO gets just a passing reference, meriting barely a paragraph in either book pn Corporate Finance. Maybe more recent textbooks pay greater attention to "homemade dividends"?
While the subjects of Corporate Finance and Investments, portfolio mgmt, etc etc are all extremely closely interrelated, there are differences (like humans and chimps, lets say). While I would NOT apply the "Homemade dividend" theory to my investment decisions, I won't try to dissuade others if they wish to do so. If you think this gives you an edge in investment decisions, AND you enjoy practicing it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Best of luck to you!!
Regards, Maxx
Yes--theories by Miller and Modigliani (homemade dividends being one of them) are always in entry-level corporate finance textbooks, but only sometimes mentioned in more advanced texts, depending on the course (because it is assumed the student already learned it in first or second-year finance).
 
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bdybldr

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sprite09

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On average the total returns on pure equity stocks is better than pure dividend stocks. If you factor in tax treatment of capital gains vs qualified dividends, pure equity stocks still put more money in your pocket on average.

If reliable cashflow is the priority then dividend stocks have their place but GICs and bonds are more reliable albeit lower total returns on average and tax treatment on interest is usually the worst.

Now might be a good time to get into dividend stocks like BCE and Enbridge as those companies require intense capital investment that is financed through debt and interest rates are falling. You could be collecting that sweet 8.65% BCE dividend and the stock appreciates significantly from the drop in interest rates.
"On average the total returns on pure equity stocks is better than pure dividend stocks. If you factor in tax treatment of capital gains vs qualified dividends, pure equity stocks still put more money in your pocket on average."

Whichever gives the lowest effective tax rate depends on a myriad of factors, such as income level, potential clawbacks, etc. In general, if you're in the higher tax brackets (and everyone appears to be a millionaire on Terb, LOL), capital gains are preferable.

Using an extreme example, billionaires don't want dividends, because it forces them to pay taxes on cash they don't need. When, say, Bezos decides he wants to buy a yacht or travel to space, he'll sell some shares.

Lots of pro-dividend investors use Warren Buffett as a counterargument, but Buffet doesn't base his investment decisions on dividends (he made it clear in Berkshire's 2012 letter to shareholders)--he's a value investor who buys solid, but undervalued (his opinion) stocks. And, he prefers more established, mature companies, which tend to pay dividends. Because he likes low prices, it makes it seem he prefers to buy high-dividend yield stocks, but it's just a coincidence--he cares about total return.

"If reliable cashflow is the priority then dividend stocks have their place..."

Yeah, it's the "bird-in-hand" argument aka uncertainty resolution by dividend investors--another reason dividend investors prefer dividends because they're more predictable than capital gains. But, as you implicitly said, what really matters is total return--that is, how much money you actually end up having.

Looks like so-called "blue-chip" stocks are really popular on Terb, like BCE, Rogers, Big Banks, etc. I'll use BCE as an example since there a popular thread on it on Terb--yeah, the stock has a high dividend yield, but that's because it's been tanking. Over the past FIVE years, it's essentially flat (actually slightly down) on a total return basis, while the TSX is up almost 40 percent (sites like Ycharts can give you the total return, and not just the capital gain/loss return).

Sure, the TSX index fund mainly doesn't generate explicit cash flows, so you'd have to sell some shares to generate your own cash flow/dividend, but at the end of the day, you have more money in your bank account.

Then to outperform the TSX or whatever market index, then you'd have to construct a portfolio of dividend-paying stocks that outperform (i.e., stock pick). Not saying it's impossible, but the odds are not in one's favour to outperform the market, especially over time (5+ years). And, based on some of the posts here (e.g., people complaining about the stock performance of BCE, TD, etc.; people panic-selling Tesla in late 2022, etc.), I'd venture to say most people here haven't beat the market over 5+ years. If they have, they likely took on additional risk for which they were compensated for. I doubt anybody here who actually outperformed the market strictly on a return basis (not factoring in risk) actually calculated their risk-adjusted return using, say, the Sharpe or Treynor ratio.
 
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Ceiling Cat

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Looks like so-called "blue-chip" stocks are really popular on Terb, like BCE, Rogers, Big Banks, etc.
These "blue-chip" stocks are popular because the probability is on your side in the long run. One reason is that these stocks also pay a substantial dividend. The ones that pay a dividend and increase the dividend regularly are called Aristocrat stocks, ( Google Canadian Aristocrat stocks ) these are the most desirable buy and hold stocks. I hold TRP and ENB.
 
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sprite09

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These "blue-chip" stocks are popular because the probability is on your side in the long run. One reason is that these stocks also pay a substantial dividend. The ones that pay a dividend and increase the dividend regularly are called Aristocrat stocks, ( Google Canadian Aristocrat stocks ) these are the most desirable buy and hold stocks. I hold TRP and ENB.
I'm well aware of the Aristocrat indices, but then it goes back to my point of stock picking and total returns.
 

bdybldr

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themaxx

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Thanks for this, but what I originally asked for was if someone could "pull up a chart comparing any, or all, of the big 5 Cdn Banks to the TSE for say, the past 30 years. Post the chart here & we can all discuss. Maybe also throw in BCE and ENB, for fun."
I find it hard to believe that no-one knows how to do that.
 

sprite09

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Thanks for this, but what I originally asked for was if someone could "pull up a chart comparing any, or all, of the big 5 Cdn Banks to the TSE for say, the past 30 years. Post the chart here & we can all discuss. Maybe also throw in BCE and ENB, for fun."
I find it hard to believe that no-one knows how to do that.
use tradingview
 
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ValuedSupporter

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@HungSowel

Dividends come out of after-tax income, it is already taxed at the Corporate tax rate before you get the dividend. If you do not take this into account before you invest then you are retarded.

OH my dear fucking god. Of COURSE dividends are paid out after profits. No shit. This is why we have the Dividend Tax Credit. Are you some Chinese troll based in Peking?


Suppose you get 1k in dividends, the corporation had to earn ~1.25k pre-taxed income to pay the 1k in dividends. Alternatively, the corporation could have spent the money doing a stock buyback, stock buyback is done using pre-taxed income and a reasonable assumption (the only reasonable assumption one can make) is that the stock buyback will appreciate your stock position by 1.25k.

Bell Canada's Tax payment policy is absolutely irrelevant. I purchcase a share of BCE $46.57 to get their $3.99 dividend per share worth 8.58%. Until about $135, 000 that Canadian dividend is taxed significantly less than a capital gain. This has been shown & referenced multiple times but you continue to ignore that and make the same arguments over and over again.

Would you rather have 1k in dividends or 1.25k in capital gains?

OhOh Oh Oh Oh Oh , please show me where I'm going to get 1.25 in Capital Gains from Bell Canada? You can't because you never reference your information. You know jack/shit and make things up as you go along.

How about would you like a Dividend Tax Credit that provides substantial tax credits that you can apply against Income to reduce your overall taxation? No?

is that the stock buyback will appreciate your stock position by 1.25k.
There is no guarantee that the stock will be worth more within 6 months. This is THE MOST DUMBIST argument I've heard yet from the Youtube Investor gang. Guaranteed Returns hahahahahahahhaa

Tell you what. Read Investing 101
 
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ValuedSupporter

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that company could have put that money back into their own business to earn a higher return for its shareholders.
ahahahahaah, "COULD".

ONLY if the company actually had new business or projects to fund AND if the return on those projects were worth it.

It's REALLY apparent you haven't worked in any sort of Corporate finance or business.
 
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ValuedSupporter

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Yes--theories by Miller and Modigliani (homemade dividends being one of them) are always in entry-level corporate finance textbooks, but only sometimes mentioned in more advanced texts, depending on the course (because it is assumed the student already learned it in first or second-year finance).
ah....M&M. It's been years since I've heard those names...
 

ValuedSupporter

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On average the total returns on pure equity stocks is better than pure dividend stocks. If you factor in tax treatment of capital gains vs qualified dividends, pure equity stocks still put more money in your pocket on average.
Just stop saying stupid shit that you heard on Youtube. Actually provide references for your statements. You'll find out how often you're wrong Per below, The S&P500 (and many other indexes) rates of return are better with re-invested dividends.

If you're going to say, "Bruh, individual stocks" then you're just cherry picking data to suite your argument. I mean, GOOD LUCK even beating the index with your "pure equity" stocks since about 70% of professionals cannot beat the index. Given your posts, I'm pretty sure you can't either.

I'm also waiting for "oh but if they didn't pay dividends the S&P500 would be higher". No, that's called fantasy and lying because you don't know that. You're being hopeful and making shit up to suite your argument...

1722473750718.png
Example RBC. Plain old boring dividend stock. With dividends, average total return of 15% since 1995. You're more than welcome to pick stocks that you like and, over the long run say since 1995, you'll see which basket of stocks do better.

Same with all the banks. Same with ENB. Same with FTS. Same with EMA. and so on.


1722474003472.png

You really have no credibility.
 
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ValuedSupporter

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"On average the total returns on pure equity stocks is better than pure dividend stocks. If you factor in tax treatment of capital gains vs qualified dividends, pure equity stocks still put more money in your pocket on average."

Whichever gives the lowest effective tax rate depends on a myriad of factors, such as income level, potential clawbacks, etc. In general, if you're in the higher tax brackets (and everyone appears to be a millionaire on Terb, LOL), capital gains are preferable.


Then to outperform the TSX or whatever market index, then you'd have to construct a portfolio of dividend-paying stocks that outperform (i.e., stock pick). Not saying it's impossible, but the odds are not in one's favour to outperform the market, especially over time (5+ years). And, based on some of the posts here (e.g., people complaining about the stock performance of BCE, TD, etc.; people panic-selling Tesla in late 2022, etc.), I'd venture to say most people here haven't beat the market over 5+ years. If they have, they likely took on additional risk for which they were compensated for. I doubt anybody here who actually outperformed the market strictly on a return basis (not factoring in risk) actually calculated their risk-adjusted return using, say, the Sharpe or Treynor ratio.
This is true that average (not marginal) Capital Gains are taxed more favorably. This happens around $130K-ish average. However, given that it's likely..what...80% of the Canadian population won't have invested enough to reach this point, I'd say it's a good recommendation to invest in dividends versus capital gains in general.

There is an exception though. I brute forced a spreadsheet that shows IF a person starts investing in mid-40s and later, investing for dividends is the way to go for income. HOWEVER, if they're starting investing below mid-40s, capital gains (and selling for income) is much much better due to the on-going taxation of dividends pre-retirement.

As for outperformance compared to indexes with your own basket of stocks, the SPIVA report is the one you're looking for. That is, most experts cannot beat the index and a large percentage (70%?) under-perform.

1722474665064.png
 

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