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Passive income from dividends. Is it a mistake?

HungSowel

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Mar 3, 2017
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Sigh....wrong, you are just wrong. Try referencing where you get your answers.

taxtips.ca $50K dividends, Ontario, $0 tax.
$80K? $622 in 2024.

This is a BASIC calculator. Use the detailed one for better answers.
View attachment 341822
If the ceremony of paying 0 income tax on your tax return is what you are after then having all income coming from dividends will accomplish that provided that you are in a low tax bracket, but implicitly you are paying ~25% tax rate as what you received is already taxed at the corporate tax rate and you have no other income to apply the DTC against so you are not using the DTC.

Plug in 37k of qualified dividends and 13k of other income, and you will see the tax rate is also ~0 because the DTC tax credit is applied to the 13k of other income, this implies that your actual tax rate is ~25% (corporate tax rate) -6.86% (DTC) = 18.14%
 

HungSowel

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Dividends have favorable tax treatment compared to interest and capital gains provided your taxable income is under $112K

Taxable income of $85,000
Interest/other income 29.7%
Capital gains 14.85%
Eligible dividends 6.4% (must be Canadian owned public companies)

Taxable income of $125,000
Interest/other 43.4%
Capital gains 21.7%
Eligible dividends 25.4%

So if you a retiree and have average income you would far prefer your domestic portfolio to pay out dividends as opposed to capital gains. If you want to hold US/foreign assets you're best to index invest and earn capital gains.
All eligible dividends come with an implicit tax rate of ~25%. You need to add 25% to the eligible dividends so 6.4% becomes 31.4% and 25.4% becomes 50.4%. In all scenarios, Capital gains get better tax treatment.
 

ValuedSupporter

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All eligible dividends come with an implicit tax rate of ~25%. You need to add 25% to the eligible dividends so 6.4% becomes 31.4% and 25.4% becomes 50.4%. In all scenarios, Capital gains get better tax treatment.
MY GOD, you have zero clue on taxation in Canada.. Please just stop, Capital gains are not taxed for favourable than dividends until about $130k-ish.

Show your work on how capital gains get better tax treatment in all scenarios.

You just have to be trolling.
 
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ValuedSupporter

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If the ceremony of paying 0 income tax on your tax return is what you are after then having all income coming from dividends will accomplish that provided that you are in a low tax bracket, but implicitly you are paying ~25% tax rate as what you received is already taxed at the corporate tax rate and you have no other income to apply the DTC against so you are not using the DTC.

Plug in 37k of qualified dividends and 13k of other income, and you will see the tax rate is also ~0 because the DTC tax credit is applied to the 13k of other income, this implies that your actual tax rate is ~25% (corporate tax rate) -6.86% (DTC) = 18.14%
god you‘re just dumb. You can see how you’re just clueless with any basic tax calculator. You know we’re talking Canadian controlled corporations right?
 
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HungSowel

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god you‘re just dumb. You can see how you’re just clueless with any basic tax calculator. You know we’re talking Canadian controlled corporations right?
You do know that dividends are distributed from a corporation's after-tax income?
 

ValuedSupporter

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You do know that dividends are distributed based on a corporation's after-tax income?
Irrelevant To my T1. prove your bull shit with math and actual references. This in investing, not personal corporation tax that you keep repeating over and over again in your post history,
 
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HungSowel

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Irrelevant To my T1. prove your bull shit with math and actual references.
I do not understand what kind of fool only cares about a number on their T1 and not actual returns on investment. If the company did not pay out dividends plus associated corporate taxes before handing out those dividends, that company could have put that money back into their own business to earn a higher return for its shareholders.
 

ValuedSupporter

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I do not understand what kind of fool only cares about a number on their T1 and not actual returns on investment. If the company did not pay out dividends plus associated corporate taxes before handing out those dividends, that company could have put that money back into their own business to earn a higher return for its shareholders.
twice you’ve been shown tax tables that show how you are completely and utterly wrong about almost everything you claim. You continue to say just dumb shit and are unable to back up or prove anything you say.

You have zero, zero credibility. how senile are you?
 
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HungSowel

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twice you’ve been shown tax tables that show how you are completely and utterly wrong about almost everything you claim. You continue to say just dumb shit and are unable to back up or prove anything you say.

You have zero, zero credibility. how senile are you?
So the fact that dividends come out of after-tax corporate income is not a factor in your investment decisions? You just look at a chart and pick the lowest number without understanding the caveats and context?
 

ValuedSupporter

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So the fact that dividends come out of after-tax corporate income is not a factor in your investment decisions? Y
WHY the fuck do I care if Bell Canada pays dividend from their corporates income? You're just explaining WHY the DTC exists to compensate for that. Do you just learn this and this it's important information?

My god you're SUCH a noob. You're just clueless or the worst troll ever.
 
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HungSowel

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WHY the fuck do I care if Bell Canada pays dividend from their corporates income? You're just explaining WHY the DTC exists to compensate for that. Do you just learn this and this it's important information?

My god you're SUCH a noob. You're just clueless or the worst troll ever.
Dividends come out of after-tax income, it is already taxed at the Corporate tax rate before you get the dividend. If you do not take this into account before you invest then you are retarded.

Suppose you get 1k in dividends, the corporation had to earn ~1.25k pre-taxed income to pay the 1k in dividends. Alternatively, the corporation could have spent the money doing a stock buyback, stock buyback is done using pre-taxed income and a reasonable assumption (the only reasonable assumption one can make) is that the stock buyback will appreciate your stock position by 1.25k.

Would you rather have 1k in dividends or 1.25k in capital gains?
 
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themaxx

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FP Answers: What is a 'behavioural edge' in investing and how does it affect returns?

By Julie Cazzin with Felix Narhi

Q: What is a “behavioural edge” in investing? How does it potentially enhance returns? How can an investor develop it? — Giovanni

FP Answers : Giovanni, the term behavioural edge is just another way of saying “temperament,” which refers to the habitual way a person behaves in each situation. For example, one person may be easygoing and relaxed while another is more likely to be impatient and assertive.



Temperament is the unsung hero of investing success. Gaining insight about our innate emotional temperament and learning how to work with it gives investors an edge.

The common misconception is that you need a high level of intelligence to be a successful investor. No doubt, that can be helpful, but based on many years in the industry, I’ve seen it is not always the most important differentiator.

Once someone has at least an average level of intelligence, it is temperament that often provides the investing edge in leading to better returns over the long term. “Investing is not a business where the guy with the 160 IQ beats the guy with the 130 IQ,” famed investor Warren Buffett has pointed out.

Having the right temperament can potentially enhance investment returns in several ways. An investor who is very reactive to external events is likely to fare poorly over the long term because, quite simply, the world is full of uncertainty and always will be. Markets are highly reactive, abetted by algorithmic trading and automatic rebalancing by exchange-traded funds. Individual investors should not be.



Research shows that investors who trade frequently or try to time the market underperform. On the other hand, those investors who can remain calm and patient throughout market cycles do better because markets historically trend upwards. Hands down, being calm, cool and collected is the right temperament for an investor to have.

The concept of “homo economicus” — or economic man — describes a hypothetical person who consistently makes rational decisions. In real life, our decisions are coloured by our formative experiences, moods, external circumstances, what we ate for lunch and a host of other factors. These influences drive our behaviours, but they often operate below conscious awareness (even artificial-intelligence apps “hallucinate”).

Given that behaviour is some combination of cognitive and emotional inputs, an investor can create an edge by developing a disciplined investment process that overrides temperament, especially during highly volatile periods.



The term “active patience” means being clear about your investment principles and what you are looking for, and practicing active patience until the right opportunity arises.

In contrast, regular patience is making an investment decision and sticking with it no matter what, even if it was the wrong decision. The latter approach is unlikely to bring financial success, which is the major goal of investing.

Active patience is what Buffett would call the “fat pitch,” which occurs when the market (occasionally) presents a very attractive opportunity. It is easy to spot a great opportunity and take full advantage of it when an investor has clear principles on what they are looking for.

Can we change our temperament? Recent studies show that personality traits and moods are subject to change, sometimes within the hour, so temperament may not be as fixed as we’ve been led to believe.


Becoming a better investor starts with self-knowledge — and lots of practice. The behavioural traits associated with good investment outcomes are patience, discipline, emotional control and risk awareness. It so happens, these qualities lead to good life outcomes, too. A calm temperament is the bedrock of making sound investment decisions.

Every investor must determine for themselves how to achieve greater equanimity and there is no shortage of books, videos and TikTok tutorials on that evergreen topic. I would also add the importance of staying humble.

In investing, as in life, the learning never stops. Staying open to new information and having the courage to challenge our own and others’ beliefs and habitual behaviours are the keys to future success.


Felix Narhi is chief investment officer and portfolio manager at PenderFund Capital Management Ltd.
 
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Ceiling Cat

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How much can you expect to get from passive income from dividends?
 

Ceiling Cat

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I'm getting several hundred thousand a year, every year, without having to do anything for it, other than having bought some quality companies many years ago.
What is the % annually?

Imagine if you get a video game and start to play it and got better over time to the point where you are winning the vast majority of times. You would have no incentive to keep playing the game. There is a prize when you pick a good stock. I am not perfect in stock picking, but I win more than I lose. I do have dividend stocks parked, you can not put your whole bundle out on the market all at once. My active stock picks outperform my passive dividend stock and make more weekly as compared to the annual dividends.

Recently two of my aristo dividend makers, TRP and ENB took off to 52 week highs. If they look like they are peaking, I may sell to buy back later.
 
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sprite09

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Ah, another dividend thread.

I think the pro-dividend crowd should seriously consider reading this (written by a CFP):


But, of course, self-made/homemade dividends (the latter being the official academic term in university finance textbooks) is difficult for many due to cognitive biases, which many people are unable to overcome despite education. This is why even Ben Felix (the guy in the YouTube video the OP posted) even concedes in another video that there's no optimal portfolio strategy [1, 4:25 mark].

What cognitive biases?

1) endowment effect--ownership of a stock makes you perceive the value of it exceeds its market value.

E.g., my buddy who worked at big bank (then eventually laid him off) still has its stock he earned through ESOP (employee share ownership plan) and unwilling to sell because it represents his "hard work" despite the fact that threw him out just like that despite 20 years of "hard work" (he never took a sick day).

e.g. 2, won't sell a stock that made you lots of gains and thus unwilling to sell it (like they say, never marry a stock).

2) loss aversion--unwillingness to sell shares at a loss (even if you're up overall). You don't wanna sell shares to create your own dividends (even if you're technically up, but it's down at the moment), BUT when a company pays a dividend, its share price falls by the dividend (this is mathematically indisputable). Getting a dividend in a down market is EXACTLY the same thing as selling off an equivalent dollar amount of stock in the same down market (this is mathematically indisputable).

3) mental accounting bias--probably the main cognitive bias that the pro-dividend crowd suffer from and hence have an affinity to dividends; it feels good to see money flowing into your account, it's like "free money" while you don't work for it (in other words, passive income). People who spend their tax refund because they think it's "free money" suffer from the same bias. There's that BS Wall Street jargon, "You're being paid to wait in this stock." In other words, " The dividend yield is high for a reason. The stock stinks" [2].

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2024/05/translating-wall-street-jargon/


[1]

[2]https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2024/05/translating-wall-street-jargon/
 
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themaxx

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What is the % annually?

Imagine if you get a video game and start to play it and got better over time to the point where you are winning the vast majority of times. You would have no incentive to keep playing the game. There is a prize when you pick a good stock. I am not perfect in stock picking, but I win more than I lose. I do have dividend stocks parked, you can not put your whole bundle out on the market all at once. My active stock picks outperform my passive dividend stock and make more weekly as compared to the annual dividends.

Recently two of my aristo dividend makers, TRP and ENB took off to 52 week highs. If they look like they are peaking, I may sell to buy back later.
I own some where my dividend Yield on Cost is over 100% - I get my total original investment, and then some, back every year. But thats not the norm.
Banks, BCE, ENB, for example, are all likely within 35-50% YOC, because I've held them a for awhile, generally only averaged down rather than DCA, and management of these such companies tend to grow their dividends 3-5% annually. Compounding is the 8th wonder of the world, as per Einstein......Albert Einstein, renowned smart-guy, not Bob Einstein, aka Super Dave Osborne. If we calculated in capital appreciation, then the total return on some of these is 1800-2200%.
If you enjoy what you're doing, continue doing it. If you dont mind the volatility, risk, and time required as an active trader, you could be successful at it. I'd go so far as to recommend that you consider a career in it. Personally, I like the freedom my method has given me. But all the research backs up that buy & hold (quality stocks) over the long term, is the best strategy for long-term, significant returns.
 
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themaxx

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Ah, another dividend thread.

I think the pro-dividend crowd should seriously consider reading this (written by a CFP):


But, of course, self-made/homemade dividends (the latter being the official academic term in university finance textbooks)........
I trimmed down you're post for brevity.
I think anybody who reads that link, (written by a CFP!), shouldnt consider taking it seriously.
I've got lots of "university finance textbooks", and I did a random survey through the index of a few, and not even 1 mentions "self-made/homemade dividends".
Would you like to know why that is?
Because what this fellow is describing it either a capital gain, or a capital loss. It is not a dividend.
If I were to get a cat, name it "Fido", feed it dogfood, take it to the dogpark, ITS NOT A DOG!! ITS STILL A FUCKING CAT!!!
Seriously, he recommends selling off a portion of your position to generate cash flow. While there is nothing wrong with capital gains, and capital losses can serve a purpose, neither are dividends. If you have to sell of an asset to generate cashflow, you've probably fucked up bigtime.

"Never put yourself in a situation where you have to sell something in an environment where you should be buying."
Bruce Flatt

Maybe, just maybe, my university finance textbooks are old, so if anyone can cite any such textbook that recommends this stupidity as a feasible strategy for building wealth, please let me know & i'll pick up a copy
 
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sprite09

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I trimmed down you're post for brevity.
I think anybody who reads that link, (written by a CFP!), shouldnt consider taking it seriously.
I've got lots of "university finance textbooks", and I did a random survey through the index of a few, and not even 1 mentions "self-made/homemade dividends".
Would you like to know why that is?
Because what this fellow is describing it either a capital gain, or a capital loss. It is not a dividend.
If I were to get a cat, name it "Fido", feed it dogfood, take it to the dogpark, ITS NOT A DOG!! ITS STILL A FUCKING CAT!!!
Seriously, he recommends selling off a portion of your position to generate cash flow. While there is nothing wrong with capital gains, and capital losses can serve a purpose, neither are dividends. If you have to sell of an asset to generate cashflow, you've probably fucked up bigtime.

"Never put yourself in a situation where you have to sell something in an environment where you should be buying."
Bruce Flatt

Maybe, just maybe, my university finance textbooks are old, so if anyone can cite any such textbook that recommends this stupidity as a feasible strategy for building wealth, please let me know & i'll pick up a copy
I wrote the LATTER term is used in textbooks. Search again--you'll find it. Or just type it in google.

Your analogy of animals or statement of, "While there is nothing wrong with capital gains, and capital losses can serve a purpose, neither are dividends."

You get a dividend, or you sell shares--what do you end up with? Money. They're treated differently for tax purposes, but, point remains, ultimately you end up with money. Thinking dividends are "special" or "free money" just illustrates the mental accounting bias I mentioned.

As mentioned...

"You don't wanna sell shares to create your own dividends , BUT when a company pays a dividend, its share price falls by the dividend (this is mathematically indisputable). Getting a dividend in a down market is EXACTLY the same thing as selling off an equivalent dollar amount of stock in the same down market (this is mathematically indisputable)."

Or as Prof Samuel M. Hartzmark put it, getting a dividend is like "taking out money out of your left pocket [from the share price] then putting it into your right pocket [the dividend]." He wrote papers on dividends, but nobody here is gonna read them--he was interviewed and talks about dividends starting around the 38 min mark [1].

"If you have to sell an asset to generate cash flow, you've probably fucked bigtime." Uh, yeah, sure. Tell that to the wealthiest people on the planet.

[1]
 
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