Partay kay bec kwa back in the saddle?

[Aardvark154]

CBC is predicting a minority P.Q. Government.

As of 9:45 EDST:

P.Q. 58
Grits 46
Coalition Avenir Québec 45
Québec Solidaire 20 (this radical party will probably hold the balance of power)

And so the lemmings go over the cliff

 

[Aardvark154]

It looks like as predicted Jean Charest is in trouble in Sherbrooke.

 

[blackrock13]

CBC is predicting a minority P.Q. Government.

As of 9:45 EDST:

P.Q. 58
Grits 46
Coalition Avenir Québec 45
Québec Solidaire 20 (this radical party will probably hold the balance of power)

And so the lemmings go over the cliff

Better check those last two numbers. It should read 56/47/20/2.

 

[blackrock13]

Does that mean that the Cree in the north of Quebec don't get the same right?

FUJI hasn't a clue about the status of the agreements between the first nations, Quebec, and Canada. The native communities of northern Quebec have every right to leave the province of Quebec. The mechanism would not be easy, but very doable.

 

[Aardvark154]

Better check those last two numbers. It should read 56/47/20/2.

My bad!
You are correct as of 10:45 EDST the numbers I have are:

P.Q. 56
Grits 48
Coalition Avenir Québec 19
Québec Solidaire 2

Which while not good, at least isn't a Banzai Charge over the cliff, which with incorrect numbers it at first looked like.

 

[fuji]

Once again you ignore any legal basis.

Since when if there is a conditional gift, can Québec attempt to say the gift is not conditional?

You're promoting a form of tyranny. You are saying that the people who live in that territory today are not entitled to self determination because of some historic treaty that was signed long before they were even born. Well, you can't strip away rights like that--those people are entitled to self determination REGARDLESS of the current constitutional framework. Specifically, they're entitled to rewrite the constitutional framework that governs their lives, through an appropriate collective democratic expression of their will. You cannot deny their right to self determination by saying, "hey, your ancestors were given that land you live on, the only home you've ever known, the place you were born--so you are really not free people, you are actually just serfs living on the land, which really belongs to the descendants of the people who gifted it to you generations ago, even though they haven't ever lived in the territory, as you have."

That is a complete non-starter. Self determination is a current, immediate right held by the people currently living in the territory. It is a current, living thing.

Now, if you could show that Quebec was divided up into distinct electoral jurisdictions, and show that a separation vote was overwhelmingly rejected in a well defined jurisdiction, you could advance an argument that people in that jurisdiction have their own right to self determination, and that could get a little messy. I don't think any sane person would go riding by riding, but if, say, the entirety of Northern Quebec voted against separation, then perhaps it should be severed off, to respect the rights of those people. But that is quite different than your radically anti-democratic assertion that the people living there are just serfs who don't really control their own destiny.

 

[fuji]

Does that mean that the Cree in the north of Quebec don't get the same right?

Native tribes *already* claim to be sovereign nations that span the US/Canadian border. That they would now span the US/Canadian/Quebec border doesn't seem like much of a change.

 

[james t kirk]

There are 2 issues that Separatists in Quebec never seem to have an answer for:

1. What Currency would an independent Quebec use?

2. What about partition?

WRT currency - If Quebec wanted to use the Canadian dollar, (I'm not sure how that would happen, but let's dream and say yes) an indpendent Quebec would have virtually no say with respect to Canadian monitary policy. At the current time, Quebec is over-represented in parliament and with the Bank of Canada. Quebec is always considered when setting economic policies. All this would end (of course) with an independent Quebec. So it begs the question, "why bother using the Canadian dollar since policy would be set whether Quebec likes it or not". So Quebec Francs? They would be worthless as Quebec would have debt worse than Greece and a GDP less than Nigeria's. I don't see this as a good thing. A guy living in Trois Rivieres who has a house worth $400,000 Canadian dollars now has a house worth $400,000 Quebec Francs and a Quebec Franc is worth about 2 cents. What about his savings? Complete and utter economic meltdown.

WRT partition. If Canada is divisible, is not Quebec divisible? The Aboriginal peoples of the north want nothing to do with Quebec now. They would want even less if Quebec were to vote to separate. If the population of Rupert's land votes to remain in Canada, they should receive the same recognition as Quebecers. After all, fair is fair. Ditto the Island of Montreal and the western edges of the province along the Ottawa River. What if those people would rather remain part of Canada.

Montreal is a rocking city. If the country of Quebec were to lose Rupert's Land and Montreal, what then?

 

[groggy]

I cant believe you guys think that the separatists are actually in power to enact separation.
They are just the better politicians who represent the desires of the people more then the other parties, and now with the back of the students.

 

[SirWanker]

I cant believe you guys think that the separatists are actually in power to enact separation.
They are just the better politicians who represent the desires of the people more then the other parties, and now with the back of the students.

dude.....
"In her speech, Marois vowed to be the premier of “all Quebecers” but also put the party’s separatist agenda in play.

“We want a country. And we will have it,” she told a sea of supporters waving the province’s blue fleurdelisé flags at the PQ’s packed Montreal headquarters.

“I want to address our neighbours across Canada. You must understand that as a nation, we want to make our own decisions about those things that concern us ... I invite you to welcome these aspirations that we have with openness,” she said.

Then the PQ leader turned her remarks to the supporters gathered in the theatre.

“I said it during the campaign. I’m saying it now, and I will continue to say it: I have the conviction that Quebec must become a sovereign country.”"

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1251318--parti-quebecois-wins-quebec-election

 

[danmand]

dude.....
"In her speech, Marois vowed to be the premier of “all Quebecers” but also put the party’s separatist agenda in play.

“We want a country. And we will have it,” she told a sea of supporters waving the province’s blue fleurdelisé flags at the PQ’s packed Montreal headquarters.

“I want to address our neighbours across Canada. You must understand that as a nation, we want to make our own decisions about those things that concern us ... I invite you to welcome these aspirations that we have with openness,” she said.

Then the PQ leader turned her remarks to the supporters gathered in the theatre.

“I said it during the campaign. I’m saying it now, and I will continue to say it: I have the conviction that Quebec must become a sovereign country.”"

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1251318--parti-quebecois-wins-quebec-election

I have said it before, and I will say it again. It would look good on Canada if the english speaking Canada showed generosity and good will in negotiating a deal to give Quebec sovereignity. All the issues of monetary union, shared passports etc etc can be solved with good will from both sides. It would look good on all the people of Canada and therefore eventually be an advantage for everyone.

Of course, a mature and generous approach is unlikely to happen, however, that will be to the detriment of Canada.

 

[rld]

Yes, but that is exactly my point. The rest of Canada, as I see it, was extremely ungraceful in fighting tooth and nail against the aspirations of the quebecers.

But each time a referendum occurred even the Quebecers voted against independence.

Despite your rather childish trolling they are not going anywhere.

And I note, as usual, you simply ignore the hard questions and practicality of the situation.

 

[rld]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. It would look good on Canada if the english speaking Canada showed generosity and good will in negotiating a deal to give Quebec sovereignity. All the issues of monetary union, shared passports etc etc can be solved with good will from both sides. It would look good on all the people of Canada and therefore eventually be an advantage for everyone.

Of course, a mature and generous approach is unlikely to happen, however, that will be to the detriment of Canada.

Your whole argument is based on false premises. The first is that the majority of quebecers want to leave Canada. The second is that there is some practical way to achieve that considering first nations rights.

It is LOL funny when you use the word "mature". Maturity would usually include dealing with reality.

I really hope you didn't pass these really poor reasoning skills on to your daughter.

 

[danmand]

Your whole argument is based on false premises. The first is that the majority of quebecers want to leave Canada. The second is that there is some practical way to achieve that considering first nations rights.

It is LOL funny when you use the word "mature". Maturity would usually include dealing with reality.

I really hope you didn't pass these really poor reasoning skills on to your daughter.

I did not ask for, or remotely expected maturity from a self professed lawyer on Terb. Sadly, my prediction is that a mature and generous approach is unlikely to happen.

 

[fuji]

It is a little troubling that the PQ is back at a time when Ottawa is run by alienated Westerners, with only five MP's from Quebec in the government.

Harper is not liked in Quebec and does not connect well with people there.

If we do face a referendum while he's in power it's hard to see him making a convincing case for federalism in Quebec. During previous referendums the PM was a popular Quebec politician.

Fortunately the PQ have only a minority, but expect to see then leverage Harper's unpopularity in the service of their cause.

 

[rld]

I did not ask for, or remotely expected maturity from a self professed lawyer on Terb. Sadly, my prediction is that a mature and generous approach is unlikely to happen.

There you go ignoring all the facts again. Visit earth someday Dan, it is a really nice place. We get real things done here.

 

[spankingman]

Wonder how many VETERANS voted for independance seeing they fought for King and Country 70 years ago.
Even now we have Veterans in their 20's 30's 40's

A likliehood of independance is very WEAK now seeing Mme.Morois only got 32%, 1 more than the Libs. She will have to watch herself as the others can bring down the house around her in a non conf vote.

 

[elmo]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. It would look good on Canada if the english speaking Canada showed generosity and good will in negotiating a deal to give Quebec sovereignity. All the issues of monetary union, shared passports etc etc can be solved with good will from both sides. It would look good on all the people of Canada and therefore eventually be an advantage for everyone.

Of course, a mature and generous approach is unlikely to happen, however, that will be to the detriment of Canada.

It would look better for Canada, if such a situation were to occur, that the Canadian governemnt stand up for the rights and best interests of it's citizens. Showing generosity would be naive and surely get the governing party removed from power in the next election. When negotiating a divorce, be ruthless with your spouse and invite the children to live with you. I suspect that this approach would drastically weaken Quebec's economy and population base, resulting in a decreased desire to seperate. I believe Canada ia better with Quebec in it, however should Quebec decide to seperate, they would become the enemy in negotiations.

 

[spankingman]

When I go to the East Coast I usually cross over at Cornwall drive through the NE/US to AVOID Quebec anyway.

 

[blackrock13]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. It would look good on Canada if the english speaking Canada showed generosity and good will in negotiating a deal to give Quebec sovereignity. All the issues of monetary union, shared passports etc etc can be solved with good will from both sides. It would look good on all the people of Canada and therefore eventually be an advantage for everyone.

Of course, a mature and generous approach is unlikely to happen, however, that will be to the detriment of Canada.

You were wrong before and your still wrong for the reasons already posted. Good will? Cut the country in two and we're suppose be nice. There is no large base support for separation, less than ~25% and little expectation for it in the future and you want us to play nice and say, 'sure'. A mature response has already about currency and passport with no ambiguity what so ever.

Cut back on the Cherry Heering DM.