Our Educational System

[shakenbake]

Well good for you!



Agreed.



No, I just live in the real world when real kids have real problems in my classroom. For the most part the kids are well behaved. There are those days however when they have their issues and classroom management goes right out the window. It then settles down and life continues much like it does throughout the rest of the parts of your life.



You teach at university? Have you ever set foot into a elementary or high school? IOr do you just spout from your college ivory tower? Where everything runs like clockwork because all the students actually want to be there. Unlike a high school where some students are there, for example, to just sell their drugs or have GeorgiaHomeBoy parties with unsuspecting girls?



No need to visit the thesaurus there Shakespeare to prove how more intelligent you are. We get it. YOU HAVE THE PROVINCIAL CREDENTIALS!!!

Yes, I HAVE taught in a high school, and have tutored numerous kids who needed remedial work, because of neglect by their 'teachers' who didn't do their job, or by their parents who thought that just throwing money at a problem would solve it. Or, the childrens' aid cases, and so on. Maybe, you have had similar frustrations with your students.

I see from your earlier posts that you are also a teacher who cares, and can be emotional about it. But, don't go spouting and assuming that you may be the only one out there who cares or knows, or that yours is the only correct opinion on a particular subject. There are many who can see things form a different perspective and add to the discussion. Don't paint all schools and students with the same brush or be so defeatist. At least, that is what I gathered by your initial comment on class management, right or wrong. I know that some days, it seems like discipline has all gone out the window.

As for university teaching, we also have very similar issues as do our colleagues in the earlier education years (I have had the benefit of teaching in both environments, but more in the post-secondary setting). A good post-secondary instructor has to often use the same tactics and techniques to manage the students. Not every university student wants to be there. And, it gets very frustrating when you know that one particular student can accomplish a great deal, but just simply will not try, or ha sissues that prevent him/her from doing so. Only the ages change, but not the 'games'. At the very least, the 'games' get a bit more complex.

Gosh, this is an interesting and sometimes hot discussion!

 

[shakenbake]

...am not a teacher...all the comments were about her.

Then, please pass the compliment on to her, as she would appreciate the compliment and encouragement.

 

[Toke]

Congratulations. Your statement above is dead on! There are many in the profession who shouldn't be there! But thank god for the good ones, and as a parent you pray that your child gets one during their time at school.

Sadly enough, hoping that your child gets one is all where things have fallen to. Too many people go through their undergraduate degrees; go into a career only to find out that they hate it; and then return to Teacher's College in order to have an 'easier' life. Too bad nobody tells them that in order to actually deal with kids, you have to like kids. Not be able to stand them; you must like them.

For this reason, I have no idea why there is not an undergraduate degree in teaching. Forget having to do one thing (that may very well be a subject that you'll never teach) in order to become a teacher. On the other hand, it should be a program similar to any other offered at a university. Once enrolled you then choose a 'discipline' that you become more inept to teach (i.e. Math, History, Geography, etc.). With a four year program that focuses on teaching, there is more time for pre-service teachers to find out whether they really want to teach, as well as more time for teachers to be taught skills to deal with a much wider variety of students. The current one to two year programs are great for those who are more 'naturally' inclined to be teachers, but for those who are not; it only provides them with the knowledge to teach in a perfect world.

I firmly believe that if this were the case, the schooling would weed out more of the inadequate teachers long before they are responsible to teach children and who can back up their credentials with their certificate.

 

[dj1470]

For this reason, I have no idea why there is not an undergraduate degree in teaching. Forget having to do one thing (that may very well be a subject that you'll never teach) in order to become a teacher. On the other hand, it should be a program similar to any other offered at a university. Once enrolled you then choose a 'discipline' that you become more inept to teach (i.e. Math, History, Geography, etc.). With a four year program that focuses on teaching, there is more time for pre-service teachers to find out whether they really want to teach, as well as more time for teachers to be taught skills to deal with a much wider variety of students. The current one to two year programs are great for those who are more 'naturally' inclined to be teachers, but for those who are not; it only provides them with the knowledge to teach in a perfect world.

There is.

It's called "concurrent Bed education" where the candidate does not go to "teacher college" but works at their teaching degree throughout their undergrad career. When they recieve their Bed in honours standing after 4 years they are qualified to become members of the OCT. Unlike most teachers who recieve an undergrad and then go for a further 2 years to recive their teaching certificate. Best example of this would be the program at Queen's. Entry into this program is very competetive. Something like 50 spots and 3000+ applicants every year. I heard someone say once that getting into this program is harder to get into than medical school. Unfortunately only about 5% of teachers are trained in this manner.

Most teachers in Ontario are actually not even trained in Ontario. This year our school has 10-12 new teachers and I would bet maybe 1-2 went to an Ontario school. Most went to Canisius, Niagara, Buffalo, St. Boneventure, UNYRochester, etc, etc, etc and paid through the nose to a tune of $25,000 for tuition. Standards to get into those schools are much lower with more spots available. There are only 7 schools in Ontario that train teachers: UofT, Queen's, Brock, Western, Windsor, Lakehead, and Nipissing and let in a total of between 200-300 maximum per year.

 

[Toke]

There is.

It's called "concurrent Bed education" where the candidate does not go to "teacher college" but works at their teaching degree throughout their undergrad career. When they recieve their Bed in honours standing after 4 years they are qualified to become members of the OCT. Unlike most teachers who recieve an undergrad and then go for a further 2 years to recive their teaching certificate. Best example of this would be the program at Queen's. Entry into this program is very competetive. Something like 50 spots and 3000+ applicants every year. I heard someone say once that getting into this program is harder to get into than medical school. Unfortunately only about 5% of teachers are trained in this manner.

I know of these programs but they are relatively few and far apart. Right here in Toronto, York has one of the best concurrent education programs in the country. However, it is not as simple a program as it sounds. It is not really one program. Students are expected to full-fill all of the course work of their four year undergrad, as well as the requirements of a one year 'teacher college-like' program. To be honest, as it is currently set up, it is not a great choice for students. I can't speak for all schools, but the program at York does not work hand-in-hand with other degrees. To put it simply, it works as a, 'here you are... by the way, don't forget that you have to get that undergrade done... good luck.' Yes, it does weed out many, but I would be more in favour of an undergraduate program where the focus is on teaching and students may only be required to take one course per year toward their specialty. This, in no way, is my plan for education. It's just the beginning of a shift in paradigm in how we prepare those who are to educate.

 

[shakenbake]

100% the truth. I wish more would. Then there might actually be dialogue for the betterment of the child.

I agree with you on this point. An old adage said that society is built on three pillars, much like a three legged stool; school, family and faith (or some substitute nowadays). If one should be weak, then the other two cannot hold up the stool without the help of the third. This is where I strenuously defend the schools and say that, from first-hand experience, children suffer due to a lack of support from home.

A teacher can only do so much without the help of the parents/guardians. This is especially true for the bullying issue (the OPs point, if I recall). Parents must teach their children right from wrong. But, speaking very bluntly, there are some 'parents' who think that their comittment to the children they put on the face of the earth ended after they had procreated. And there are others who don't know any better about the partnership between the home and the school. The question is, what to do to help these parents to help the children?

 

[dj1470]

A teacher can only do so much without the help of the parents/guardians. This is especially true for the bullying issue (the OPs point, if I recall). Parents must teach their children right from wrong. But, speaking very bluntly, there are some 'parents' who think that their comittment to the children they put on the face of the earth ended after they had procreated. And there are others who don't know any better about the partnership between the home and the school. The question is, what to do to help these parents to help the children?

Your post reminds me of an old story:

An angry parent approached her child's grade 4 teacher and screamed, "What are you doing here? What is my child learning? You get too many days off! I might as well pay you $5/hour just like my babysitter!". The teacher calmly expalined, "Thank you Ma'am please get all the other parents on board with your plan - 33 students in the class X $5/hour = $165/hr, so 6 hrs X $165 = $490/day, so 223 days of school X $490/day = $209,270/year"

As the parent stormed out of the classroom speechless the teacher called out, "Thank you Ma'am almost $210,000 a year in pay would be great!"

 

[nervous]

PD days arent vacation days, teachers still have to attend day long conferences, seminars, workshops all sorts of crap that they would rather avoid and be in the classroom teaching the kids, and yes they arent paid in the summer, its a 12 month contract that gets paid in 9 months, as for prep time well elmentary teachers 20 minutes a day, and high school get an hour a day, would you prefer badly planned classes where the kid gets taught nothing and instead just goofs around

Why do they only get 20 minutes a day? The elementary teachers are in class for a max of 6.5 hours per day (start at 9:00 and end at 3:35 including lunch). So that should leave them at least 90 minutes of prep time per day.

And don;'t go on about badly panned classes...I went through this system and most teachers used the same class plan year after year after year, so why the prep time. For $60,000 to $90,000 per year, they should work for 12 months and get vacation time like everyone else....start at 2 weeks and work up. That would give them plenty of time to 'prep'.

For a job that is so hard and so under appreciated, it has an enormous amount of people lining up to get in!

 

[nervous]

Your post reminds me of an old story:

An angry parent approached her child's grade 4 teacher and screamed, "What are you doing here? What is my child learning? You get too many days off! I might as well pay you $5/hour just like my babysitter!". The teacher calmly expalined, "Thank you Ma'am please get all the other parents on board with your plan - 33 students in the class X $5/hour = $165/hr, so 6 hrs X $165 = $490/day, so 223 days of school X $490/day = $209,270/year"

As the parent stormed out of the classroom speechless the teacher called out, "Thank you Ma'am almost $210,000 a year in pay would be great!"

Well in Ontario they will be there after their next contract.....

 

[dj1470]

Well in Ontario they will be there after their next contract.....

Bitter much?

 

[Toke]

Well in Ontario they will be there after their next contract.....

Don't get me started on the problems that unions cause...

 

[shakenbake]

Don't get me started on the problems that unions cause...

Unions can be both a good thing and a bad one. It depends on who is leading the union. Initially, society needed unions, because the working conditions and the welfare of the workers were dismal. However, it can be safely stated that some unions have gone too far.

Having said that, I do not want to hijack this thread. Who wants to start a new thread on unions? I will not, because I am not wearing my asbestos underware!

 

[Toke]

Unions can be both a good thing and a bad one. It depends on who is leading the union. Initially, society needed unions, because the working conditions and the welfare of the workers were dismal. However, it can be safely stated that some unions have gone too far.

Having said that, I do not want to hijack this thread. Who wants to start a new thread on unions? I will not, because I am not wearing my asbestos underware!

Agreed!! Now back to your regularly scheduled thread!!

 

[basketcase]

Gee, just from dating a teacher, I see lots in your posts that don't jive.

New collective bargaining in 2007. ALL high school teachers must teach an extra 1/2 course over the year bringing their total to 6.5/8 per year or 2 semesters....

Unless you're board did well in negotiations, it's really 6/8

.. When they recieve their Bed in honours standing after 4 years they are qualified to become members of the OCT.

It's actually 5 years

Unlike most teachers who recieve an undergrad and then go for a further 2 years to recive their teaching certificate.

Most programs are 1 year

Most teachers in Ontario are actually not even trained in Ontario.

??????

There are only 7 schools in Ontario that train teachers: UofT, Queen's, Brock, Western, Windsor, Lakehead, and Nipissing and let in a total of between 200-300 maximum per year.

When my exGF was in school (fairly recently), there were something like 800 in her program at OISE and that might have just been secondary.

Your facts just don't add up.

If you want, I can try my luck at a booty call and check my info but in the mean time, http://ro.oise.utoronto.ca/

 

[dj1470]

Gee, just from dating a teacher, I see lots in your posts that don't jive.

Which is probably why you are not a teacher because you're speaking out of your ass.

Unless you're board did well in negotiations, it's really 6/8

Wrong again.

It was called Bill 74 and was imposed several years ago at the end of the Harris reign.

From the OISE website, "the passage in June, 2000 of Bill 74 which imposed an extra half course workload on each secondary school teacher in Ontario" http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/depts/sese/csew/nall/Oct-9-Press-Release.htm

It's actually 5 years

Wrong again.

Collective bargaining happens every 4 years and historically contracts have been that long unless boards re-negotiate the next contract while still in the previous one. Here is some recent evidence for you to chew on.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=2312b17f-0b81-4831-a142-00ec149f215c
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...al/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20081206.woteachers1206

Most programs are 1 year

Wrong again.

Most teachers colleges are moving towards 2 year programs since currently most student teachers go through a 10 month program including the 4 month practicum. All colleges are different but most are doing away with the 10 month and going to two 8 month sessions still with the 4 month practicum. OCT supports this as it gives student teachers an extra course load to train.

When my exGF was in school (fairly recently), there were something like 800 in her program at OISE and that might have just been secondary.

Here you are correct. UofT is the largest and can let in the most applicants. I was speaking as an average for all of Ontario. Colleges at Brock and Windsor for example let in far fewer applicants. Try to read someone's post properly next time, OK?

Your facts just don't add up.

Actually they do. I've been doing this for a long time now.

 

[basketcase]

Which is probably why you are not a teacher because you're speaking out of your ass.




Wrong again.

It was called Bill 74 and was imposed several years ago at the end of the Harris reign.

From the OISE website, "the passage in June, 2000 of Bill 74 which imposed an extra half course workload on each secondary school teacher in Ontario" http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/depts/sese/csew/nall/Oct-9-Press-Release.htm



Wrong again.

Collective bargaining happens every 4 years and historically contracts have been that long unless boards re-negotiate the next contract while still in the previous one. Here is some recent evidence for you to chew on.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=2312b17f-0b81-4831-a142-00ec149f215c
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...al/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20081206.woteachers1206




Wrong again.

Most teachers colleges are moving towards 2 year programs since currently most student teachers go through a 10 month program including the 4 month practicum. All colleges are different but most are doing away with the 10 month and going to two 8 month sessions still with the 4 month practicum. OCT supports this as it gives student teachers an extra course load to train.




Here you are correct. UofT is the largest and can let in the most applicants. I was speaking as an average for all of Ontario. Colleges at Brock and Windsor for example let in far fewer applicants. Try to read someone's post properly next time, OK?




Actually they do. I've been doing this for a long time now.

You must be one of those arrogant teachers who won't admit he's wrong. Hopefully your retirement date is soon so they can get your ass out of the classroom and get someone in who isn't full of themselves (and full of BS).

First you said 2007 for this 6.5/8 and support it with a bill from 2000 that no longer applies.
Next you say there are only a couple hundred teacher spots in the province when one school alone has more than 1200 per year (and somehow they don't count in your provincial numbers.
You say York's concurrent programs is 4 years while it really is 5 then try and pretend you're talking about something else.
You say ed programs are 2 years when they are not. Sure they might be in the future but that's the future.
You say collective bargaining is every 4 years but the contract length has varied over the past decade. I seem to remember strikes and other crap more than a few times since Harris was elected. The news is just talking about elementary teachers negotiating a two year contract. Hopefully they will keep it at four years though (and again judging by the news, negotiations didn't begin anywhere in the province until after the last contract expired.

And I'm still waiting for your proof of most teachers not being trained in Ontario.

Do the kids a favour and get out of the classroom as soon as possible.

 

[dj1470]

You must be one of those arrogant teachers who won't admit he's wrong. Hopefully your retirement date is soon so they can get your ass out of the classroom and get someone in who isn't full of themselves (and full of BS).

First you said 2007 for this 6.5/8 and support it with a bill from 2000 that no longer applies.
Next you say there are only a couple hundred teacher spots in the province when one school alone has more than 1200 per year (and somehow they don't count in your provincial numbers.
You say York's concurrent programs is 4 years while it really is 5 then try and pretend you're talking about something else.
You say ed programs are 2 years when they are not. Sure they might be in the future but that's the future.
You say collective bargaining is every 4 years but the contract length has varied over the past decade. I seem to remember strikes and other crap more than a few times since Harris was elected. The news is just talking about elementary teachers negotiating a two year contract. Hopefully they will keep it at four years though (and again judging by the news, negotiations didn't begin anywhere in the province until after the last contract expired.

And I'm still waiting for your proof of most teachers not being trained in Ontario.

Do the kids a favour and get out of the classroom as soon as possible.

Whatever.

All you apprently want to do is argue and attack pointlessly so I will digress.

You have obviously had bad experiences with the education system here in this province and are just very bitter about it.

You have already attacked me in another thread about something rather non-sensical.

You obviously don't get it.

You are speaking second hand. "I heard this" and "I saw that" instead of in reality. All your links to your "proof" are either worng or off-point.

I'm done here. You may have the last word because as you previously stated, "I HAVE THE PROVINCIAL CREDENTIALS" which obviously proves your superiority.

'nuf.

 

[basketcase]

...
You are speaking second hand. "I heard this" and "I saw that" instead of in reality. All your links to your "proof" are either worng or off-point.
...

here you go joker.

First you said 2007 for this 6.5/8 and support it with a bill from 2000 that no longer applies.
You say collective bargaining is every 4 years but the contract length has varied over the past decade.
Since you are likely in Toronto, this might be your collective agreement
http://www.osstfd12.com/artman/publish/cat_index_7.shtml
The collective agreement states:

3.15.3.0.0. All full-time Teachers will be assigned
core professional responsibility for six
teaching periods or equivalent out of
eight.

Please note that the previous contract listed is 2 years, not 4


Next you say there are only a couple hundred teacher spots in the province when one school alone has more than 1200 per year (and somehow they don't count in your provincial numbers.
I already gave a link for that which in some convoluted way you chose to ignore.

You say York's concurrent programs is 4 years while it really is 5 then try and pretend you're talking about something else.

One year is added to your undergraduate studies and in the remaining four years you work concurrently to complete the requirements of your undergraduate program as well as the professional teaching program.

http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/programs/template.asp?id=388


You say ed programs are 2 years when they are not. Sure they might be in the future but that's the future.
This is your assertion about two years so why don’t you show some proof? The york site and OISE sites clearly show it as a one year program.
http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/programs/template.asp?id=388
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/oise/Prospective_Students/Teacher_Education.html


And I'm still waiting for your proof of most teachers not being trained in Ontario.

Your basic lack of information on your stated profession pretty clearly shows that either you have no clue what is going on around you or you're just a twit.

 

[Thousand]

I am not a teacher, but it is worth to point out that the problem with our educational system is lack of cohesiveness with parents and teachers.

If parents and teachers could work together, then our society would be in a lesser mess.

 

[buckwheat1]

just a few thaughts from previous post.

Con ed as it's called is where a student is in teh education program from the beginning, this program is 5 years and tehy work on both a ba or bsc and the bed at the same time. This program is the harest way as it's true harden then med school to get into. My daughter is in it at Queens where they take
100 students teh cut off mark for entry is 90%. This year it's the higest average mark and it's @ 95%. This is highest of any entry at Queens. The demand is very high. The students who take this course already know they want to be teachers. The otehr route taking bed after 4 years is alos tough must have a 4.0 grade point average over years 3 and 4 aat university. Many of these students didn't make med school, lawyer ect so they end up being a teacher.
PS: the average teacher in Ontario works the national average of 56 hours per week and spends about $700 of there own money on supplies ect.