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Osama Openly Mocks Bush in Tape

Peeping Tom

Boil them in Oil
Dec 24, 2002
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The left have been looking for capital with this one for years. It doesn't go anywhere.

As for peak oil, the authors of this conjecture quite frankly don't impress me. Yet, you didn't argure any of the peak oil chants and spells.

Stacy said:
Although completely unreported by the U.S. media and government, the answer to the Iraq enigma is simple yet shocking -- it is in large part an oil currency war.

[...]

Global "Peak Oil."
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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I'm not sure what you're saying, Stacy.
That the US wants to be able to buy oil at below-market prices? By robbing the Iraqis? That they want to keep oil prices high by controlling the Iraqi reserves - thereby keeping all their oil buddies rich?

I don't buy the oil argument. It's never made sense.
 

Ranger68

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You think they're going to MONOPOLIZE the world's oil resources?? That's going to be difficult.
To what end would they even try?
The US does not have, even in their most elabourate fantasies, the military might to be able to attempt it.
 

Ranger68

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That's not nearly true, even in the general sense. That is, unless you accept the US' definition of "weak political institutions", which the way things are going, may include Russia, Brazil, France, and even Canada in their eyes. :rolleyes:
There's no way the US could even begin to absorb all the oil rich countries, either militarily or politically, into their close sphere.

Militarily, it's a fantasy. They barely have the power to do the things they're doing now. To *control* a number of countries requires lots of ground troops - troops which are unavailable now, and are not going to be available in the future. The current US military doctrine calls for the maximum usage and continued development of expensive, technologically complex weapon systems - which will obviate the need for large-scale troop deployments, but maximize their ability to project offensive (not occupational) power around the world.

Your proposition smells badly of some of the more elaborate, difficult-to-believe conspiracy theories.

However, I firmly believe the US is interested in spreading militarily through the Middle East. This is less about oil, and more about maintaining the US status quo as the world's leading and only superpower.
 

Ranger68

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Alright, so let's accept that the US is urging other nations to join them in their "war on terror" so that they can help in the occupations of these nations. Somehow, then, the US is going to lay sovereign claim to the oil resources of all of these nations - even when US troops aren't occupying the country?? Even if the US took "handovers", they STILL wouldn't be able to provide enough troops to successfully occupy all of these countries. Especially since, once they start *stealing* the oil, the inhabitants are going to singularly rise up against them. I also can't imagine the rest of the world, including the US' titular allies, standing by while this happens.

Don't overestimate the US' military power.

The strategic interest in the Middle East is partly because many of those in the current US cabal have very close ties to Israel, not to mention that the two nations have been very closely Allied for some time now. Iraq was at the top of their hit-list, coinciding with Israeli concerns quite closely. They're interested in promoting US global hegemony to the rest of the world - "We're the only superpower left, and we're not going away, so you better fall in line." They picked an easy target for demonstrating their will to wage "preventive" war, in opposition to the will of the UN.

As for why not Northern Africa, well, again, they had a better target. Iraq was an easy sell to the American people, and they have close allies in the region already - although perhaps Saudi Arabia and Turkey weren't quite so far into the US sphere of influence as they thought, as Israel was. There was "unfinished business" with Iraq, a ready-to-hand enemy (Saddam) to lend a moral suasion to the enterprise, vague UN resolutions which would give an invasion some thin veneer of legitimacy, and most important of all, a standing army that hadn't yet recovered from a recent thrashing waiting to be destroyed in a land which favoured the use of US military technology.

I have no doubt they have vague plans about expansion elsewhere as well - Asia, for instance. Sudan, though, doesn't remotely fit. They're in the grips of a civil war, and the US has had bad experiences in Africa in the recent past (Somalia). This would have been a very difficult sell, both to the American public, and to others in the administration. They'd been talking about Iraq from the minute they'd come to power.

Haiti isn't in Northern Africa. And Sudan has lots of oil.

You haven't explained how oil is a "political weapon". It isn't, despite vague historical threats from "Islamists" that Muslim countries should use the denial of oil supply as a weapon against the US. Nobody took them seriously then, and nobody should take them seriously now. The US certainly doesn't, despite even *their* increased anxiety level about Muslim governments in general.

It just doesn't make sense. It's NOT about oil, except perhaps very tangentially to the minds of those in charge, and in precisely the same sort of vague, malformed notions that you have. If you think it is, you need to explain why - more than just saying "US hegemony". If the "war on terror" *is* about oil, why did they start with Afghanistan? Why was North Korea put on the hit list?
 

WoodPeckr

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May 29, 2002
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Halliburton and Cheney I believe were involved in the plans for construction of those natural gas and oil pipelines through Afghanistan. This was a project on their 'dream sheet' for quite some time.
 

langeweile

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Sep 21, 2004
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How can a war on oil be bad? Unless we all start planning to use bicycles or walk.
Does anyone feel gulity here, when they stop at the gas station, and fills up his "baby" with gasoline?
Stop being such hypocrites. If anyone here is seriously worried about oil, take the first step and sell your car, stop using plastics, but all natural fiber, stop using paint....fill in any other products you can think of.
It makes my skin crawl listen to some of you, crying on the "war about oil" while taking out the SUV for a spin.
Would have the oil rather in the hand of a few fanatics, that have no love for you at all, or do you want to control on who controls?
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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Stacy said:
I do not have much time to elaborate, I will try to make my point in the most simplistic terms. The war in Afghan was about oil, essential pipelines. The construction of natural gas and oil pipelines through Afghanistan.

An important reason why the US sided with the Taliban in its revolution against the former USSR.

Where there is profit to be made, where US interests are challenged, nothing is sacred. People, no, whole nations are there to be manipulated.

As for my point of view is certainly anything but, vague or malformed. I have explained my stance with great detail, accompained with current worldly events.
This is nonsense. The US supported THE ENEMY OF THE SOVIET UNION. They wanted to USSR so firmly mired in the rugged terrain of Afghanistan that they'd suffer the same humiliation as happened to them in Viet Nam. That's all. Simple, really.

Explain how oil is a "political weapon". You really haven't answered the simplest of my questions.
 

Ranger68

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THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OIL!

What is the US going to do once it has "control" of the huge Iraqi oil reserves? Someone - anyone - answer this.

The question about whether or not there's profit to be made by the *development* of oil stands - that's another question. I think the Afghanistan invasion is quite simply explained though - the US had no choice, politically, after 9/11. Not that they were against an Afghan invasion, but the public pressure on them to do something very tangible and real about Al Qaeda after the attacks left them little alternative. The public would not have been satisfied with the Clinton solution of lobbing over a few cruise missiles. I think pretty much nothing less than a full-scale invasion and overthrow of the government was going to be acceptible.

That this suited many other concerns of those in power (US hegemony, corporate greed) was a nice little bonus.
 

Ranger68

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Ah, the resort to argumentum ad hominem. It always comes to that when there's nothing left. LOL

Explain to me how oil is used as a political weapon, or I think it's obvious to me and everyone else here that you haven't the foggiest notion what you're talking about.

If you want, I'll further embarrass you by defeating all of your arguments before I've even heard them. :) I'll give you the chance to defend yourself first, though.
 

Ranger68

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Oh, I'll quote from the very article you've sited:

“It frankly doesn’t matter who controls a particular oil producer. They have little choice but to sell the oil and in many cases that is the chief, if not the only source, of significant revenue,� he said.

“They are going to put their oil on the market, regardless of who controls the political power in the capital city. And if they put their oil on the market, you know that determines the ultimate price, not whether the regime is friendly to the United States or hostile,� he said.

This pretty much sums it up.

Thanks, and goodnight.
 

WoodPeckr

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May 29, 2002
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Ranger68 said:
What is the US going to do once it has "control" of the huge Iraqi oil reserves? Someone - anyone - answer this.
OK I'll give it a try.

Many thought, me included, that once Bush overthrew Saddam and 'nation built' his new democracy in Iraq the people there would love the USA to pieces and show their eternal qratitude by using their huge oil reserves to finance their own reconstruction and defense, thereby keeping the US from running the US deficit into the stratosphere. In this scenario everyone is happy, makes massive bucks, OPEC oil pricing influence is countered, and the USA shows the world how to nation build Democracy.
There is no need to control Iraqi oil since it was expected they would give the US preferred prices out of the goodness of their hearts for ridding them of Saddam.
 
Jan 24, 2004
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I agree that the "Iraq is all about oil" argument is specious.

It is far more cost effective to simply make deals with rulers of oil rich nations, and to obfuscate the crimes being perpetrated by the governments of these nations. Europe has been doing so with Sudan, and the US continues to do so with Equatorial Guinea.

Had either the first or the second Gulf War been "all about oil", would it not have simply made more sense to make a deal with Sadaam instead of invading and essentially cutting off the world from cheap Iraqi oil for the past ten years and (until the oil infrastructure there is repaired, a long and costly process) for the forseeable future?
 

Ranger68

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There is NO WAY ON EARTH that a US-conquered country is going to withdraw from OPEC and start selling the US oil at cutthroat prices. NO WAY. There is NO WAY anyone in the current US administration, misguided as they are, is under this particular illusion. Again, this would be akin to *stealing* the oil from an occupied nation. The first time anybody tried that would be the last.
 

Ranger68

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Oh, I read the entire article.
It's nonsense.
You COULD try explaining it yourself, if you understand it, instead of just pointing to the article and quoting.
*smile*

How, exactly, does control of the Iraqi oil - assuming, of course, they exercise ANY control now that they're there - allow them to "stabilise the oil market"? What does that even mean??

Carpenter, of course, is just being an ass. While purporting HIMSELF that a war for oil doesn't make any sense, he states that those in power just don't understand the issues, and that that's why they're there.
Nice argument. LOL
He quite rightly explains why the whole war for oil thing is nonsense, though.
YOU could try to explain it by answering my question.

The problem with oil being a weapon like water, is that the global trade of oil is heavily regulated PRECISELY TO PREVENT these kinds of wars. It is in NO nation's interest to undermine OPEC's power to any serious degree, least of all the US, and I'm quite certain they understand this, too. Those nations that have oil generally tend to sell EXACTLY AS MUCH AS THEY'RE ALLOWED, with *very* few exceptions. If they were permitted to sell as much or as little as they liked to whomever they liked, things would be different, and I would agree that oil was a serious weapon. Fortunately for us, the oil trade is very heavily regulated. The US buys oil at market standard prices from everyone who's willing to sell, on or off the Axis of Evil, military presence or not, and those countries are glad to make the money. Nothing is going to change that any time soon.

Unfortunately, it all makes for quite tedious conspiracy theories.

Answer my question, if you don't mind.
 

Ranger68

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No, you haven't answered my question. You consistently fail to answer direct, simple questions, or entirely fail to address the points in my posts.

Thus, I won't answer any more questions of yours, or address any more of your points.

People, the "war for oil" is a myth. It has little to do with oil. There's nothing the US can do, sitting on the oil in Iraq, or even influencing a pro-Iraqi regime in Baghdad, that it couldn't do before the war - namely, buy Iraq's oil at standard market prices, and try to influence OPEC not to switch to the Euro. (Frankly, I think it's only a matter of time.) Iraq is not going to withdraw from OPEC just because the US is in charge.

You don't have to invade oil-producing countries, at huge cost in both fiscal and human terms, to get oil. As Gwynne Dyer so aptly points out, "you just write them a cheque".
 

langeweile

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Sep 21, 2004
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Stacy said:
.

Speaking of theories, enquiring minds would like to know if your are cons. or lib. ?
Do people always have to fit either category? i believe that the vast majority of people is a little bit of both.
It is the extremes of both side that are trying to categorize you. Life is not always black and white.
 

Manji

The Balance of Opposites
Jan 17, 2004
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I've only read the last two pages (thought this article was about Osama but it went off topic - surprise surprise) but I'm gonna have to side with Ranger68 on this one.

The case for war against Iraq was actually more ideological than economical. It was fueled by America's thirst for revenge for 911; and the Bush administration chose its most wanted target, Saddam Hussein (and one of the easiest targets to vilify).
Iraq was the first and best choice for the Bush administration. The Bush cabinet already possessed a seething hatred for this regime and it believed that it could make a very convincing case for war. And to make a long story short, that's what it did.

Perhaps some in the Bush administration hoped that if all went well that Iraq would favour America with some favourable contracts but the oil issue was not a factor for Gulf War II.
 

langeweile

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Sep 21, 2004
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bbking said:
Boy it's always great to watch someone speak out of both sides of their mouth at the same time. This little speech from the person who once referred to all moderate Liberals as closet Conservatives. Geeeeeez


bbk
It is your own assumptions that lead you astray.

ASSUME = ASS out of U and ME
 
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