Oops Robby did it again!

AdamH

Well-known member
Jun 28, 2013
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Actually I was born in Winnepeg. I'm fine with it and take the streetcar every day.

But this is a town of immigrants and the looming large elderly demographic. It will be very tough to get them out of their vehicles if they have to stand outside. That's my point.

You won't get them out until the proper transit is built. Period. If its a choice of sitting in a warm car, even if it takes more time, they will do it. Cripes I have able bodied friends who grew up here and won't do it.

And as I look at my parents and their mobility issues no way they can take transit.

See now?
Nope.. You make too many assumptions.

Many of these immigrants you speak of are used to far worse transit situations.. Sure it's warm in India, but there ain't no fuckin' A/C on the buses they take. Most of their rail cars are also without A/C. Other places don't even have fuckin' transit (ever see a Subway in Jamaica, let alone an LRT)? People coming from China are used to far worse conditions and way more overcrowding.. Immigrants are not the ones worrying about Subway vs LRT..

It's the middle class white folk (or second generation Canadians of any colour) that bitch about having to wait outside in the cold for their bus.. Like they're entitled to a nice warm ride everywhere they go (regardless of how much it actually costs the rest of Toronto).. If your theory about immigrants was true, then why are the busiest bus routes in the most immigrant rich neighborhoods (35 Jane, 36 & 39 Finch are usually the top 3)..

As for your parents.. Fuck 'em.. Just like we fucked our grandparents and their parents before them.. Even if they had a fucking subway to their door they wouldn't use transit enough to base an transit strategy on.. So that's just stupid..

None of this matters because even if we had Subways everywhere feasible the vast majority of people would still have to walk to a subway (in your demonic COLD temperatures), or wait for a bus...

Don't get me wrong, you are right, we need better transit to get people out of their cars. But I know you, and this wouldn't be the first time you made the argument that our climate is the reason we need subways.. I'm quite certain the cold has very little to do with why the majority of people don't take transit.. I think the main problem is that people still feel it's quicker to get to and from where they're going by car (and I don't know if they're wrong).
 

groggy

Banned
Mar 21, 2011
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Don't forget them icy streets and the cold!
Not a worry. Other then this polar vortex of a winter we just had, our new normal since climate change is hitting is to only have snow on the roads for a couple of weeks to a month a year.
Ask Moviefan, he'll tell you.....
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
32,158
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Groggy. I'm happy to have a conversation with you......

But in any reference to my Parents please refrain from using any foul language as a descriptor. You don't know their situation.

Thank you.
 

Polaris

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2007
3,073
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hornyville
People coming from China are used to far worse conditions and way more overcrowding.. Immigrants are not the ones worrying about Subway vs LRT..
I haven't been to China lately. Last time I was there, and took a subway, it was just as crowded as we see today in the Toronto system, especially during rush hour. It's no different. The TTC is basically third world and worst. Those subways system in China are all new.

That is how Toronto and China are the same, and different.

Toronto and China are the same because public transportation is usually crowded.

Toronto and China are different because when public transportation becomes crowded at capacity, they build more subways in China, while we scheme on how to finally rid of the Ford brothers.
 

groggy

Banned
Mar 21, 2011
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Groggy. I'm happy to have a conversation with you......

But in any reference to my Parents please refrain from using any foul language as a descriptor. You don't know their situation.

Thank you.
I apologize, I had no idea moviefan was your father/mother.


Or did you just confuse me with AdamH, in which case you should be apologizing to me.
 

MattRoxx

Call me anti-fascist
Nov 13, 2011
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People with disablities should be using Wheel Trans.
Butler1000's description of people too old and infirm to walk getting behind the wheel of a car is quite frightening.

More bad news for Scarborough subway proponents in an article from spacingToronto

From the beginning, Stintz and de Baeremaeker sought to minimize the additional expense, claiming that a subway was only $500 million more than the $1.8 billion LRT (for a total of $2.3 billion). By June 2013, according to briefing notes obtained by Spacing, Metrolinx officials, in discussions with the City and the ministry of transportation (MTO), were pegging the additional costs at $925 million, meaning a subway would cost $2.7 billion.
But that $925 million may have been a low-ball estimate.
Spacing obtained a May, 2013, “business case analysis,” prepared by John Howe, Metrolinx’s vice-president for investment strategy and sent to two senior provincial officials, Carol Layton and David Black, on June 28, 2013. It suggests the $3 billion overall subway cost estimate may fall hundreds of millions of dollars short of the mark. (Howe oversaw the Metrolinx effort to find new revenue tools to fund The Big Move.)
“The subway is at a very preliminary (pre-EA) design stage and therefore it is prudent to apply an optimism bias uplift, typically + 40% to 50% for Capital cost estimates,” the memo explains. “A lower rate of optimism bias uplift is applicable to the LRT scheme, reflecting a much more advanced status of the designs. Applying 45% optimism bias for the subway scheme and 12% optimism bias for the LRT scheme, a cost differential of $1.5 billion is derived.”

In other words, since the subway plans are very preliminary, the amount by which its costs might exceed the current estimate is much higher than for the well-developed LRT plans. That means that, once all the real-world expenses are tallied up, the subway could end up costing as much as $3.3 billion. According to the briefing note, that number doesn’t even include a range of other expenses, nor does it account for the fact that the original allocations are given in 2011 dollars.
Howe’s memo also outlined a range of other concerns relating to capital costs, operating implications and construction risk. Written well before council and the province hammered out a deal, this document is the clearest articulation of Metrolinx’s reservations about the proposed change in direction.
What’s more, the fact that these concerns were communicated to senior provincial officials in late June, 2013 indicates that Murray’s office would have — or should have — known about the financial analysis. There’s nothing on the record to indicate, however, that Murray publicly discussed the total possible cost, much of which would be born by Toronto taxpayers.


LOW RIDERSHIP PREDICTION
In addition to the costs issue, the Metrolinx memo addressed the problem of expected ridership. The travel forecast for 2031 on the Scarborough RT corridor shows a “maximum flow” of approximately 11,000 passengers per peak direction per hour. That figure is not even half of a subway’s capacity (25,000 passengers), and less than the LRT capacity of 15,000 passengers. “It is therefore concluded that the additional capacity of subway technology is not required and does not add value to the scheme,” the memo stated. “This initial assessment suggests the volume of benefit likely required to justify the switch to subway construction will not be generated and the switch would not represent good value for money.



“While further analysis could create a more definitive statement,” the memo continued, “preliminary analysis indicates that the subway scheme will not represent a good use of public investment dollars….”
The Metrolinx memo also had warnings about the risk of further delay — as much as six years — given the current state of the Scarborough RT. “The SRT is considered life expired by the TTC who [sic] describe the state of the infrastructure and the vehicles as ‘approaching critical.’ It may therefore be necessary to provide bus replacement service for the SRT during all or part of this six year period.”
On the question of connecting transit investment to planning goals, the Metrolinx memo observes that new subway stations on the Scarborough line at Sheppard and McCowan, and Lawrence and McCowan “provide little or no opportunity to intensify land use in the vicinity of these stations, negating the potential to support provincial TOD [transit-oriented development] policies and to create growth nodes around these major transit interchange facilities.”

Finally, Howe flagged other significant cost question marks:
The realignment of the line [PDF] under Scarborough Town Centre — the subway will pass beneath the mall whereas the LRT would have skirted to the south of the property — “is likely to be costly and will inconvenience users of the existing McCowan SRT station”;
“The subway option is likely to eliminate the possibility of an extension of this corridor to Malvern Town Centre in the long term;”
If the new GO interchange at Kennedy station becomes more popular with people traveling downtown, “the benefit of providing through service [on] the Bloor-Danforth subway to Scarborough…would diminish.”
“At this stage,” the Metrolinx memo warned MTO, “no further work to quantify or monetize these issues has been undertaken.”
Yikes.
 

groggy

Banned
Mar 21, 2011
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Polaris

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AdamH

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Jun 28, 2013
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Have you taken the TTC at rush hour?

I doubt you ever have.

You should try it. Then you will know you do not have to travel far to have a Third World experience. Best part is, it still only cost $3.00!

http://provocativepenguin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/20110210-busy-stgeorge-3.jpg

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/ttc-rider-group-awarding-public-transit-failure

Wow.. You think having to stand in line to get on a train (or stand in a crowd) is as bad as it is in a third world country?? Could you please try to be a little more dramatic..

The two aren't anything alike in the least.

Yes, I regularly take the subway in Toronto during rush hour. At it's worst I'll get off the East/West subway and immediately have to stand in a line up just to get up the stairs to get to the Southbound trains... Big deal.. Having to wait in line doesn't equate to taking transit in a third fucking world country..

Even the photographs you use in your argument show that there's no comparison. Nobody said the Toronto Transit is never crowded.. The argument was that it's still better than what immigrants are used to.
 

AK-47

Armed to the tits
Mar 6, 2009
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Dont have they have transit workers in China who's job is it to push people into crammed subways cars??
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
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has it occurred to you that they have a comprehensive subway system
Much of it built well before cars were the dominant personal transport. Did it ever occur to you that paved streets were the result of demands from cyclists for adequate infrastructure?

New Yorkers also pay higher taxes than the pittance stingy Toronto commuters complain about while burning more in gas idling on the aptly named Parkway than ride on a decent transit system would cost.

Some Torontonians voted for an anti-transit car fan who cuts taxes even further with no plan for building even the useless stump of subway his voters imagine was a credible promise from a proven serial liar.

But even with Rob's war on Cyclists a few more every year give up in on the do-nothing useful mess he's made of Council and the City and solve their transit problem themselves, like 14% of New Yorkers.

With pedals.
 
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AK-47

Armed to the tits
Mar 6, 2009
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In the 6

Polaris

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2007
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hornyville
Wow.. You think having to stand in line to get on a train (or stand in a crowd) is as bad as it is in a third world country?? Could you please try to be a little more dramatic..

The two aren't anything alike in the least.

Yes, I regularly take the subway in Toronto during rush hour. At it's worst I'll get off the East/West subway and immediately have to stand in a line up just to get up the stairs to get to the Southbound trains... Big deal.. Having to wait in line doesn't equate to taking transit in a third fucking world country..

Even the photographs you use in your argument show that there's no comparison. Nobody said the Toronto Transit is never crowded.. The argument was that it's still better than what immigrants are used to.
All I am saying is this system the TTC is just as bad, or right now I would say worst than transit systems we find in the Third World.

Denial does not work. Building more subways is the answer.
 

AdamH

Well-known member
Jun 28, 2013
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All I am saying is this system the TTC is just as bad, or right now I would say worst than transit systems we find in the Third World.

Denial does not work. Building more subways is the answer.
So basically you're saying that YOU never take the subway during rush hour.. My bad. I thought you had some knowledge on the issue.
 

MattRoxx

Call me anti-fascist
Nov 13, 2011
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Have you taken the TTC at rush hour?

I doubt you ever have.

You should try it. Then you will know you do not have to travel far to have a Third World experience. Best part is, it still only cost $3.00!

http://provocativepenguin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/20110210-busy-stgeorge-3.jpg

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/ttc-rider-group-awarding-public-transit-failure
I take Danforth subway from Broadview out to Scarborough at rush hour. It's never packed like the Yonge line. That is why the DRL is needed, not a 3 stop Scarborough subway.

Also, all around the world - the first world - cities are putting in LRTs. Faster to set up, more cost-effective, don't need to build expensive stations, and better user experience since you can get on it at street level instead of having to descend 2 stories underground for a ride.
 
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