Omar Khadre

seth gecko

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Yup I will. I'll chalk this one up to your failure to comprehend. You're asserting that he was a Taliban fighter. That strengthens the case that he should be treated as a POW.

It's simple, but you've already decided what you believe in advance, and so obvious facts like this aren't registering for you.
The fact that he remained with a group of men who intended to engage US soldiers in a firefight when he had the opportunity to leave (probably still get detained anyways, for reasons already covered), and quite likely did engage the soldiers, pretty much proves that he was a Taliban fighter. A group that dresses like civilians when they fight, not like uniformed soldiers. If a low-level junior Mafiosi kills an French gendarme working with the Italian carabinieri on a raid on the Palermo safehouse the mob is operating out of, you would automatically give Guido POW status??? He's referred to as a soldier, the mafia historically was the de facto "government" in Sicily for many many years and still effectively controls huge sections of Palermo against the authority of the current government. If a Mexican Zeta kills an American DEA agent working with the Mexican army in raiding a drug operation, you'd give him POW status?? The Zetas control large areas throughout Mexico, and it founders were formerly Mexican SOF, so they used to wear uniforms, but dont anymore. Meets alot of the criteria your laying for the Taliban, don't it. Just because someone fight for a group, does that make them a soldier, if the group is a criminal enterprise?
That he would be treated as an honoured Taliban four years prior to the fight, which he could have avoided, goes to show the whole "he had no choice, he's a victim, he was forced into it" argument to be pretty flimsy (but since flimsy is all that you have, you've made good mileage with it). His older brother repudiated the family and co-operated with western groups fighting AQ & the Taliban. He could do it but Omar never could???? The kid had ZERO free will???
His terrorist pedigree is pretty well established - I don't feel the Taliban meet the criteria required to afford its members POW status. And that is really what the crux of this entire trial is about. The laws haven't kept pace with the situation on the ground.

Fuji, you have about 10% of the available information on this situation, yet you feel that you have all the answers to an extremely complex situation. I have much, much more information on the situation than you do; easily double the info you have, which only puts me at about 20% - and I feel thats not enough to make any kind of judgement on the legality of it. Plus, I'm not a lawyer the way you pretend to be.
Now, I've implied that you don't have a clue what you're taking about, and you've countered that it is actually I that don't understand the issue.
Lets have some fun with that.
Why don't you start a poll where our peers can judge who is a better source of actual information, not opinionated interpretation, on the A-stan situation - me or you, based on what we've respectively posted. Loser voluntary stays off TERB for a month....sort of a Terb version of "Survivor", except its a gentlemans agreement, (so when you lose it's not binding on you).
Waddaya say, sound like fun??
 

fuji

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The fact that he remained with a group of men who intended to engage US soldiers in a firefight when he had the opportunity to leave (probably still get detained anyways, for reasons already covered), and quite likely did engage the soldiers, pretty much proves that he was a Taliban fighter.
Great. He should be a POW then.

The kid had ZERO free will???
No-one ever said he had zero free will. You said he chose to be a Taliban fighter. That means his proper place is in a POW camp. I would note that if he were assigned the status of a POW he wouldn't be walking out of jail a relatively free man about a year from now. Oops.

I don't feel the Taliban meet the criteria required to afford its members POW status.
That's OK, you're often wrong.
 

seth gecko

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Great. He should be a POW then.



No-one ever said he had zero free will. You said he chose to be a Taliban fighter. That means his proper place is in a POW camp. I would note that if he were assigned the status of a POW he wouldn't be walking out of jail a relatively free man about a year from now. Oops.



That's OK, you're often wrong.

Ha ha ha....good comeback.
So you'd give the mafiosi and the narcoterrorist POW status as well?
Start the poll, Fuji.
 

fuji

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Ha ha ha....good comeback.
So you'd give the mafiosi and the narcoterrorist POW status as well?
Start the poll, Fuji.
Seems to me that the Taliban actually fields an army in Afghanistan.

You're attempting a slippery slope argument, probably hoping to undermine the entire GC by pointing to increasingly gray cases. Plainly if you look around you will find cases in the world that are increasingly gray and fuzzy. There's plainly a continuum between a formal military and a criminal gang. Some criminal gangs may well cross over and become militaries--an organization like FARC perhaps--but in general probably not.

At any rate, the existence of gray areas does not undermine a clear cut case like Afghanistan, where the Taliban plainly have a military force.
 

Aardvark154

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You're attempting a slippery slope argument, probably hoping to undermine the entire GC by pointing to increasingly gray cases. . . . the existence of gray areas does not undermine a clear cut case like Afghanistan, where the Taliban plainly have a military force.
And there is the problem, you insist that they are. Whereas many others with greater knowledge make coherent legal arguments that they are not.

Further as you well know, the Geneva Conventions were not intended to cover groups like al-Quada and the Taliban.
 

seth gecko

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And there is the problem, you insist that they are. Whereas many others with greater knowledge make coherent legal arguments that they are not.

Further as you well know, the Geneva Conventions were not intended to cover groups like al-Quada and the Taliban.

Bingo!!!
Ideally, the legal questions should have been resolved BEFORE the doorkickers went in. But they weren't. Shit happens.
I don't know about you, but I'm getting dizzy from the circles this thread has been running in. If anyone OTHER than Fuji would like any clarification on what I've said (several times now), please ask away & I try to answer. Otherwise, I'm dropping this thread
Fuji, still waiting for that poll....you & I engaged in a fight for the hearts & minds of Terb!!!!. Why are you afraid of this???
 

Rockslinger

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I dunno, let's give him a fair trial and find out.
Didn't he already say in his own words that he was there to defend his country --------The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan? Isn't that the same as rescinding his Canadian citizenship? BTW He was also shooting at indigenous Afghans who were defending the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan with their American ally.
 

fuji

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Further as you well know, the Geneva Conventions were not intended to cover groups like al-Quada and the
Taliban.
Probably not groups like Al Qaeda, but it certainly was intended to cover groups like the Taliban. It was specifically structured not to require a legitimate government, etc., just to include such groups.
 

fuji

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Didn't he already say in his own words that he was there to defend his country --------The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan? Isn't that the same as rescinding his Canadian citizenship? BTW He was also shooting at indigenous Afghans who were defending the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan with their American ally.
I dunno let's give him a fair trial and find out.
 

slowandeasy

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Ha ha ha....good comeback.
So you'd give the mafiosi and the narcoterrorist POW status as well?
Start the poll, Fuji.
Did you notice the poll that Fuji started has only two choices, so that you are forced to admit Kadr's innocence by default?
 

blackrock13

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Did you notice the poll that Fuji started has only two choices, so that you are forced to admit Kadr's innocence by default?
That's one the usual flaws in his polls. They are never complete and tend to make it hard to got against his point of view. I seldom partake.
 

slowandeasy

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I think if you had a third option about whether he was guilty of some charges you might have seen that most people (much higher than 63%) would answer yes.
 

fuji

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Did you notice the poll that Fuji started has only two choices, so that you are forced to admit Kadr's innocence by default?
I'll assume you simply misread something and as you've been corrected by Malibook now I further assume that you will be posting a retraction. If this was just an oversight on your part, reading too quickly, it happens to all of us some times, no harm done.

But you should retract it, just to be sure.
 

fuji

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I think if you had a third option about whether he was guilty of some charges you might have seen that most people (much higher than 63%) would answer yes.
A fair court would not convict him of ANY charge unless it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So if he's been falsely convicted on ANY charge, that's a problem. I have no doubt that he's guilty of some minor offense or other. There's a huge difference between some minor offense, and 40 years in prison, though.

If I wrote a poll the way you describe I think the only people who would vote "no" would be those who believe he is a POW, in which case the GC makes it illegal to charge him with anything. As a result a "Do you think Omar Khadr should be treated as a POW" would be the more direct question in that case.
 

slowandeasy

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I'll assume you simply misread something and as you've been corrected by Malibook now I further assume that you will be posting a retraction. If this was just an oversight on your part, reading too quickly, it happens to all of us some times, no harm done.

But you should retract it, just to be sure.
Too much navel gazing Fuji. Below are the 2 choices in the poll.

Yes, he did everything he was convicted of 38 63.33%
No, he's not really guilty of all those charges

There are only 2 choices Fuji. The way that you worded the poll makes it biased to the results that you want.
For example, if I don't believe that he was guilty of everything he was convicted of, then I would have to vote no.
But what if I believe that he was guilty of 90% of the charges? I still have to vote no.
 
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