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OK, you WebWeenies! Why Java? Why Flash? Too much coffee? …in the pan?

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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The Star’s Richard Morochove’s year end piece contained a tidbit that catalysed yet another frustrating web-site experience into this rant: To wit, a survey of businesses revealed that the most common operating system actually in use is Windows 95. Ok, mosta these are for office serfs, not surfers, But it does suggest that the bleeding edge of progress is not where most folks hang out. And dial-up—, I bet even some TERBorgs still use it—is still the pokey path to the Internet for many. So why do the accomplished and clever designers of websites for 'Slurp ‘n’ Spank Spa' lard their creations with the latest in time-wasting,uninteresting Flash animations and untested Java-based navigation schemes? I actually do wanna know.

I’m not completely stupid about computers—I’ve had one since the VIC-20—but I’ve never explored the briarpatch of the IBM/PC/DOS/Wintel World; all Macs all the time. As I understand it MacroMedia and Sun developed Java and Flash to be platform and browser-independent. Like the HTML of your basic old bulletproof webpage. As is its wont, MicroSoft—a major Apple backer— did what it jolly well pleased with/to both. And I’ve observed that often the best bet to a) get the page to work at all or b) to get it to deliver the goods before I click onward (assuming the page hasn’t choked the browser into catatonia) is to use MS Explorer. But as I say, even it can’t always cope.

So: if the point is to get me showered and on the table, pondering “oil, powder or lotion?”, then how is this java/flash malarkey helping? Old fashioned pages where I clicked a thumbnail and linked to another page with mo’ betta’ pictures, they delivered the only goods I’m interested in. And faster than even the best of the competent Java scripts. Does anyone really think I won’t notice that 'Lexias' pictures were licensed from a soft-core image bank, or look like Guccione family- album rejects just because they, swirl, lurch, scroll and slide when and if I accidentally cursor over some cyptic blob on the page? How can anyone believe I’ll enjoy that over-amped soundtrack for the umpteenth time, when all I want is to check a sked?

I assume this stuff gets demonstrated under optimum conditions to clients who weren’t the brightest bulbs to begin with (much as I love this hobby, my personal joystick doesn’t require any rocket science) and who may very well believe that it’s all about the lovely, lacey, lingerie-look when you’re in a bit of a wool-pulling game. I’ve got some hats I’ll barbecue if any customer honestly says the slick gimmicks of a website decided the question for them. Betcha 90% just want the pix: accurate, up to date and fast loading. They want the location stuff—once. And to know who works when. And if anyone says repeat web-visits are enhanced by the fancy-presentation stuff, I’ll forgo the condiments. For me that page’s a tool, not a TV show.

Instead of an uninspired, animated intro—boring once, acutely annoying every time after—why not put that effort, f’rinstance, into scheduling software the MP manager can actually use day-to-day: a roster which shows up automatically on the web site. And links from girl-on-schedule to her pix. “Write info once, use many times” has been a computer maxim since I wrote FORTRAN on punch cards for computers that filled gymnasiums. Then and still today, "the least code that achieves the desired result is the best code". The machines have gotten way smarter. Wish I could say the same about websites.

So: I’d love to hear the rationale behind the “lard it up with chrome” philosophy. Is it the clients? Am I wrong, and customers love it? If everything only works properly with MicroSoftStuff, will we soon be seeing the cyber equivalent of, “Talk white, frog”? I know it sure sounds like an axe is being ground, and far be it from me to have no point of view. But I truly am mystified at the sheer numbers of sites that make me wait, like a bored theatre audience, while the stage crew hammers and bangs behind the curtain and I check my watch again and again. Until I’m wondering how can it be worth it, when the curtain finally does go up. And after it sticks halfway, and the embarrassed ASM scurrys into the wings, and the cardboard tree falls over, and…
Webmasters and Designers, thanks for your patience—and your genius when it does work— the floor is yours.
 

Average Joe

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2002
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Well, said Winston.

You covered a few of my pet peeves. FrontPage novices who call themselves web designers, overly Flashified web sites and of course the evil empire, Micro$oft.

Most escort sites seem to be designed to appeal to the women they are about rather than the men they are supposed to be attracting. A good web designer will impress upon the client that sites have to appeal to the clientele not the client.

You can't go wrong with a fast site that is simple, well organized and concise.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Average Joe said:
…[edit]… a fast site that is simple, well organized and concise.
Can you name one? I thought of putting examples in my too-long post: bad ones—too easy to find, too discouraging to designers and businesses alike—and good ones, but aside from HFH's, which mostly works—couldn't think of one
 

pineappleguy

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Sep 7, 2003
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Web Page Designers Take Note!

99.999% of web designers test their web-sites over a high-speed local area network connection. They do not see the pain they are inflicting on those of us that cannot, due to geographical restrictions, connect via cable-modem or DSL. While the whiz-bang stuff looks slick over a LAN connection, it sucks for those of us that cannot get the necessary bandwidth.

Web-page designers need to learn that if the page hasn't loaded in 15 seconds or less, their intended audience (i.e. the prospective customer base) is clicking elsewhere.
 

Average Joe

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Mar 28, 2002
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oldjones said:
Can you name one? I thought of putting examples in my too-long post: bad ones—too easy to find, too discouraging to designers and businesses alike—and good ones, but aside from HFH's, which mostly works—couldn't think of one
Here are three examples of sites that IMHO are well designed.

www.badkat.net
www.auralieallthetime.com
www.alexataylor.com

FYI, I have never seen these women or worked on their websites.
 
It's sad that my first post on here has to be on this topic, but I'm a sad sort of guy in a ravishingly sexy way, and the geek-artiste in me just couldn't resist :D

If you are looking for a cheap "web designer" look for someone that does not code by hand, that uses "front page" or some other bloody horrible software to do the tags. Add in a dash of "designer" and you get a dog's breakfast for a web page.
That may have been true a couple of years ago, but that isn't really a qualifying characteristic anymore since many Frontpage-like editors (read Dreamweaver) have since evolved into complete integrated development environments that make tedious tasks easy and at the same time write valid, standard code.

(And also offer code-by-hand environments for the computer-science-type-left-brained-people).

A GREAT example of this is Dreamweaver. Frontpage 2003 has been getting good reviews as well from previous skeptics.

I do, however, agree that flash isn't all that great of a medium for content delivery. Ok, it sucks for content delivery, and I really think it could be done better.
 

canucklehead

Active member
Oct 16, 2003
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Well thank god it wasn't me that brought this up. I design in flash when it is needed or requested . Flash is great for building fast and easy to use applications. Flash MX2004 Pro is a full on developers wet dream, i love it.
I use to hand code till i started working with Dreamweaver Mx 2004. it writes to 508 accessibility and the most important thing is i barely have to go in by hand and change anything as the Xhtml and Html is to Standard as is the CSS.
Also the Canadian Government as well as US loves the new macromedia suite due to the fact it does write to standards.
As far as many of the SP and MP sites i have noticed some of them are way over the top. I want info and i want out. the thing that pisses me off more then anything is music. I created a music composer for online use in flash for a client but why do you play music for a MP or SP site?
Also if you are a web master please learn how search engines spider and stop putting intros pages with no text and way way too many keywords. While we are at it please what is with the alt tags being key words. Also poor page descriptions short medium and long version plus no doc types.
Speed is the essence in this information age. Put your ego away and look at what works and don't try and copy Joshua Davis or Curtis Hillman.
Now don't get me wrong their are some brilliant young designers but know the code not just the graphics and use tools to test load times and try and optimize.
Also don't make something move unless it is part of the message or is truly needed.
"sigh"
These reasons and referrals are what paid for my house in the beach and my cottage. While others are slow and starving i am still working and getting fancy G5 dualies for Christmas :)
PS if flash is done well is done great and with Flash Mx 2004 for can be to standards also.
 

canucklehead

Active member
Oct 16, 2003
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I use bbedit all the time. But i prefer emacs or vi to be honest if i have to use a text editor.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Average Joe said:
Here are three examples of sites that IMHO are well designed.

www.badkat.net
www.auralieallthetime.com
www.alexataylor.com

FYI, I have never seen these women or worked on their websites.
Thanks.
BadKat's didn't want me—"this site for IE only" but at least she was honest. No comment. But she won't get business from me.
Auralie's seemed straightforward and clean and un-encumbered by "looks-good" junk.
Alexa's used that annoying <Back Next> format for pix, so you have to endure all the bad shots before getting to one that you like. And they come slow. Ran outa patience.

Lots has been said above about doing sites well. I'm still intrigued by the designer/client choice to use something like flash that adds nothing to my experience or use of the site. Why do they do it? Your examples didn't (Kat I don't know) and were better for it
 

Average Joe

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2002
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oldjones said:
Thanks.
BadKat's didn't want me—"this site for IE only" but at least she was honest. No comment. But she won't get business from me.
I got in fine using Mozilla. I won't use IE because of the security holes.
 

Average Joe

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2002
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Kathleen said:
Average Joe - Thanks so much for adding me to the list. However, I don't mean to "hang myself" so to speak, but think there should be two kinds of sites
1) Those that are well designed
2) Those that I enjoyed visiting.

Myself, I feel badkat.net is the latter. Not well designed, but easy to navigate, and nice to visit.
I would say that because your site is easy to navigate that makes it a good design. What you haven't done is fall into the trap many web developers do and that is use every feature of the tool they are using just because it's there...even if it doesn't make sense.

As for the "IE only" limitation, I never ran into it for some reason using Mozilla. One of the side effects of using FrontPage is that it is very difficult to create a site that supports multiple browsers. Add one small thing and *poof* your site is IE only.

For any sites I develop I try to support IE 5.5+ and Netscape 6+ (including Mozilla) at a screen resolution of 800x600. But then, I don't use FrontPage.
 
kathleen,
The easiest way to make sites show up well in most browsers is by trying to keep your HTML 'valid'. A super-easy way of checking if your HTML is valid is using the W3C HTML validator: http://validator.w3.org/

Just type in the address of your website and it will tell you the errors that it finds and on what lines they appear. Granted, some of it is a bit cryptic, but I'm sure you'll figure it out.

I once had about 180 errors on one of my pages, but after I worked through them, it was such a great feeling of having all my code valid.

Hope that helps.
letsgo.
 

canucklehead

Active member
Oct 16, 2003
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Best way to learn HTML is to do what letsgoletsgo says validate.
A) It actually helps you with the search engines. ( Believe it or not)
B) Looks good cross platform.
C) 508 Accessibility (browsers for the Handicapped)
D) Looks professional
E) Makes me all warm and mushy inside.

I really appreciate when people that want to do there own work do it. It ain't rocket science.
It will be better for you if you do it now then latter when you have to hire someone because of US Federal laws that will be spreading into Euro and Canadian Internet domains that a site has to be fully accessible to all people(Handicapped, readers Etc..).
Honestly when i just want info i surf with images off and use lynx because i want something fast and i want my info now.
Oh and kat a lot of company domains will be stopping people from surfing pages with java on them soon because of IE security issues.
Long live Mozzilla and Konqueror.
For all you Macheads OMNI group has Omniweb 5 coming out soon and it looks hot UI changes are sweet.
 

Average Joe

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2002
363
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Kathleen said:
I tried the link guys, and keep getting this - Fatal Error: No DOCTYPE specified!
What is that supposed to mean?
All HTML pages should specify a DOCTYPE tag. This tells the validator what version of HTML to use in checking your page's syntax. It also helps search engines navigate your site. It goes before the <html> tag. You can read more about it here - http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/doctype.html

Since your site doesn't use frames I would suggest the HTML 4.01 Transitional DOCTYPE.
 
hehe, yeah I got that error the first time I tried too.

They do like getting all panicky over it too.. FATAL ERROR!!! BLAH BLAH!! END OF THE WORLD!!! pardon the shouting, but it's like... whoa, calm down buddy.

like Average Joe said, HTML 4.01 Transitional is probably best for you and you can declare it by putting the following info right at the top of your HTML (even before the opening html tag) so your page will look something like this:

Code:
<!-- start doctype declaration -->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
<!-- end doctype declaration -->

<html>
<head>
<title>blah blah</title>
</head>
<body> etc....
Don't get intimidated about the number of errors. The 'warm mushy' feeling that canucklehead referred to is totally worth it :) Plus the nice side effect that you will have a completely interoperable web page.

good luck!
 
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