Obama says some voters are angry, bitter

Mar 19, 2006
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onthebottom said:
No, they are not accurate, but you don't see that because you're elitist ;)

People don't believe in religion, secure borders or the second amendment because of economic hardship.....

OTB
Your spin is off.

That is not what he said. What he said was; in times of hardship people tend to more strongly embrace religion, family and personal values than they normally would. Because of this, they can sometimes be blind to the real issues. This is factual and Psychology 101.
 

onthebottom

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lookingforitallthetime said:
Your spin is off.

That is not what he said. What he said was; in times of hardship people tend to more strongly embrace religion, family and personal values than they normally would. Because of this, they can sometimes be blind to the real issues. This is factual and Psychology 101.
No spin required, what he said was:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years. ... And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

So, the jobs have been gone for 25 years and they get bitter and they Cling to guns or religion.....

You don't think this is a problem because you believe this yourself.

OTB
 
Mar 19, 2006
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onthebottom said:
You don't think this is a problem because you believe this yourself.

OTB
.....and you think this is a problem because it validates your fear of Obama.

Tempest in a teapot, my friend.
 

TQM

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looking,

Obama has admitted he worded his claim poorly. Really, it was beyond poor. The image of "frustrated" Pennsylvanians clinging to their guns......
 

onthebottom

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As usual, George Will can say it better than I can:


Candidate on a High Horse

By George F. Will
Tuesday, April 15, 2008; Page A15

Barack Obama may be exactly what his supporters suppose him to be. Not, however, for reasons most Americans will celebrate.

Obama may be the fulfillment of modern liberalism. Explaining why many working-class voters are "bitter," he said they "cling" to guns, religion and "antipathy to people who aren't like them" because of "frustrations." His implication was that their primitivism, superstition and bigotry are balm for resentments they feel because of America's grinding injustice.

By so speaking, Obama does fulfill liberalism's transformation since Franklin Roosevelt. What had been under FDR a celebration of America and the values of its working people has become a doctrine of condescension toward those people and the supposedly coarse and vulgar country that pleases them.

When a supporter told Adlai Stevenson, the losing Democratic presidential nominee in 1952 and 1956, that thinking people supported him, Stevenson said, "Yes, but I need to win a majority." When another supporter told Stevenson, "You educated the people through your campaign," Stevenson replied, "But a lot of people flunked the course." Michael Barone, in "Our Country: The Shaping of America From Roosevelt to Reagan," wrote: "It is unthinkable that Roosevelt would ever have said those things or that such thoughts ever would have crossed his mind." Barone added: "Stevenson was the first leading Democratic politician to become a critic rather than a celebrator of middle-class American culture -- the prototype of the liberal Democrat who would judge ordinary Americans by an abstract standard and find them wanting."

Stevenson, like Obama, energized young, educated professionals for whom, Barone wrote, "what was attractive was not his platform but his attitude." They sought from Stevenson "not so much changes in public policy as validation of their own cultural stance." They especially rejected "American exceptionalism, the notion that the United States was specially good and decent," rather than -- in Michelle Obama's words -- "just downright mean."

The emblematic book of the new liberalism was "The Affluent Society" by Harvard economist John Kenneth Galbraith. He argued that the power of advertising to manipulate the bovine public is so powerful that the law of supply and demand has been vitiated. Manufacturers can manufacture in the American herd whatever demand the manufacturers want to supply. Because the manipulable masses are easily given a "false consciousness" (another category, like religion as the "opiate" of the suffering masses, that liberalism appropriated from Marxism), four things follow:

First, the consent of the governed, when their behavior is governed by their false consciousnesses, is unimportant. Second, the public requires the supervision of a progressive elite which, somehow emancipated from false consciousness, can engineer true consciousness. Third, because consciousness is a reflection of social conditions, true consciousness is engineered by progressive social reforms. Fourth, because people in the grip of false consciousness cannot be expected to demand or even consent to such reforms, those reforms usually must be imposed, for example, by judicial fiats.


The iconic public intellectual of liberal condescension was Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter, who died in 1970 but whose spirit still permeated that school when Obama matriculated there in 1981. Hofstadter pioneered the rhetorical tactic that Obama has revived with his diagnosis of working-class Democrats as victims -- the indispensable category in liberal theory. The tactic is to dismiss rather than refute those with whom you disagree.

Obama's dismissal is: Americans, especially working-class conservatives, are unable, because of their false consciousness, to deconstruct their social context and embrace the liberal program. Today that program is to elect Obama, thereby making his wife at long last proud of America.

Hofstadter dismissed conservatives as victims of character flaws and psychological disorders -- a "paranoid style" of politics rooted in "status anxiety," etc. Conservatism rose on a tide of votes cast by people irritated by the liberalism of condescension.

Obama voiced such liberalism with his "bitterness" remarks to an audience of affluent San Franciscans. Perfect.

When Democrats convened in San Francisco in 1984, en route to losing 49 states, Jeane Kirkpatrick -- a former FDR Democrat then serving in the Cabinet of another such, Ronald Reagan -- said "San Francisco Democrats" are people who "blame America first." Today they blame Americans for America being "downright mean."

Obama's apology for his embittering sociology of "bitterness" -- "I didn't say it as well as I should have" -- occurred in Muncie, Ind. Perfect.

In 1929 and 1937, Robert and Helen Lynd published two seminal books of American sociology. They were sympathetic studies of a medium-size manufacturing city they called "Middletown," coping -- reasonably successfully, optimistically and harmoniously -- with life's vicissitudes. "Middletown" was in fact Muncie, Ind.
 

onthebottom

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lookingforitallthetime said:
.....and you think this is a problem because it validates your fear of Obama.

Tempest in a teapot, my friend.
I have no fear of Obama - he's a very bright and well spoken man with absolutely no qualifications to hold his current job much less the one he's reaching for. When someone has done so little and is reaching so high every little thing he does/says will take on significance. They guy can't bowl and he thinks middle class America is too bitter to get his policies while they cling to guns and religion.... Not a recipe for winning the Reagan Democrats while running against a real war hero.

Admit it though, you do agree with his cling logic..... you'd like San Fran, they think just like you ;)

OTB
 

onthebottom

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TQM said:
Obama has admitted he worded his claim poorly. Really, it was beyond poor. The image of "frustrated" Pennsylvanians clinging to their guns......
It wasn't the wording that was flawed it was the logic. I'll tell you, I have MANY friends in San Fran, his logic would play very well there.

OTB
 
Mar 19, 2006
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TQM said:
Obama has admitted he worded his claim poorly. Really, it was beyond poor. The image of "frustrated" Pennsylvanians clinging to their guns......

It's important to keep in mind this was supposed to be an off the record, no press event. Obama had his guard down and didn't express himself as clearly as he could have.

I agree it was worded poorly but it's obvious to me what he meant and I agree with his conclusions.
 
Mar 19, 2006
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onthebottom said:
I have no fear of Obama - he's a very bright and well spoken man with absolutely no qualifications to hold his current job much less the one he's reaching for. When someone has done so little and is reaching so high every little thing he does/says will take on significance. They guy can't bowl and he thinks middle class America is too bitter to get his policies while they cling to guns and religion.... Not a recipe for winning the Reagan Democrats while running against a real war hero.

Admit it though, you do agree with his cling logic..... you'd like San Fran, they think just like you ;)

OTB

OTB, You're so busy spinning you're missing the point. I have no doubt this will hurt Obama. I just don't think it should.

Yes, I agree with the cling logic. It's human nature to embrace religion, family and personal values in times of uncertainty. This is true in San Francisco, New York, Toronto, London, France......etc.

Now, if you're going to start questioning the logic of Obama's generalization, maybe you should look in the mirror. Unless of course you really believe the people of San Francisco all think the same.
 

TQM

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looking,

I think your wrong on that. I think you are wrong to agree with those conclusions. Both religion and guns are held strangely dearly by Americans, even when economic conditions are strong.

Think what you are saying through - if he did have his guard down, as you're claiming, then he really meant what he said. The fact is, those Pennsylvanians had been giving him pretty strong support - he'd closed the gap with Hillary - until he painted them as backward, mindless hicks, clinging to their guns as a knee jerk reaction to ages old job loss.

Sorry - but it was an uncharacteristically stupid thing for him to say - and a real indicator that the "message of hope" stuff is just a shtick. Where's the message of hope to Pennsylvanians?
 
Mar 19, 2006
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TQM,

You're spinning just like OTB. He never claimed Pennsylvanians were "mindless hicks clinging to their guns as a knee jerk reaction to ages old job loss."

He was posed a question on why getting his message out in small towns has been so difficult (throughout the campaign he has been scoring big in the urban areas while Hillary does better in rural areas). He offered his poorly worded opinion but I understand what he was trying to say and agree with him.

I don't believe his guard being down allowed insight into a hidden agenda as much as it caused him to speak less clearly than he usually does. It's a long campaign and it must be incredibly difficult to be "on" 20 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Anyway, we disagree. Go figure!
 

MrSmirf

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onthebottom said:
No spin required, what he said was:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years. ... And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

So, the jobs have been gone for 25 years and they get bitter and they Cling to guns or religion.....

You don't think this is a problem because you believe this yourself.

OTB
No your interpretation is off base. The point he is getting across is that people at times of hardship are clinging to WIDGE issues, and are not able to get past them to resolve the real issues that are causing the hardships.

For example blaming the economic downturn of America on free trade deals is laughable but that’s what the working class apparently wants to hear. America has been the biggest activist in the world pushing the globe to open up their markets; and they've benefited enormously because of this in both influence and monetary means.

The reality is that most of the western Economies are basically experiencing an economic evolution..where manufacturing isn't anymore a factor in the economy. Some working class folks feel that these jobs can be brought back when they won't be, unless America turns into a big socialist machine, which I doubt will happen anytime soon.

Change can be great for some and a bitch for others who can't adapt. But no one wants to hear that if your comfortable making 50k a year straight out of high school with a powerful union doing mindless work bolting on screws....

Instead of blaming free-trade they should realize how much damage unions have done...always seeking an increase in compensation without increasing any efficiencies and such.
 

TQM

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funny how the people of

Pennsylvania don't share your opinion of his comments. Hard to think of Pennsylvania as a hardship state, but what do I know.

Sure - some Americans want to hear an anti-free trade message. But come to think of it, hasn't Obama been anti-free trade? hmmmm.. Must be missing something here.

Obama was trying to offer a sociological explanation for why he hasn't gotten great support in small towns. He painted a bad, wrong picture. Not all small towns face economic hardship. Not all small towns are filled with gun lovers.

He was basically saying they cling to stupid things, and this is why they don't embrace him. That's insulting. That's why voters in Pennsylvania are turning away. This isn't rocket science.
 
Mar 19, 2006
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TQM said:
He was basically saying they cling to stupid things, and this is why they don't embrace him. That's insulting. That's why voters in Pennsylvania are turning away. This isn't rocket science.
It certainly isn't.

Proof is in the fact you, Frasier, OTB and Lou Dobbs reached the same conclusion.

You're in good company.
 

TQM

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I think Obama could have

split Pennsylvania until he put his foot in his mouth...... but what do I know....
 

MrSmirf

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TQM said:
split Pennsylvania until he put his foot in his mouth...... but what do I know....
Funny thing is people hate politicians and are dissolution by politicians because most politicians (like Hilary) will say and do anything to become elected. But when people hear the truth about issues stated completely uncensored they can't handle it. Yet they want a politician who will be truthful with them when the news isn't all that great.

Some serious confusion right there don't you think?

Damned if you don't damned if you do.

So I guess to be a smart politician you should just continue the status quo until there are some real disasters that can't be ignored or shoved under the table.
 

Aardvark154

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lookingforitallthetime said:
Obama's comments were accurate.
This is every bit as much a matter of opinion as the statements of other posters who have been criticized for "mind reading."

lookingforitallthetime said:
by the way, isn't being elite a good thing. . . ?Further proof the best and the brightest will never gain high office in today's political age. You have to bowl over 145 and be "folksy" to get elected. How sad.
Actually being a member of the elite (either social or intellectual) or at least being perceived as such has in fact been a negative in U.S. Politics since the election of 1800 and most definitely since that of 1828. Numerous Nineteenth Century social and political commentators on the U.S. remarked on it. We don't hear the term "egghead" used much anymore but Americans have traditionally been highly suspicious of very well educated (over-educated) politicians, as well.

Mentioning Jefferson or Lincoln is nice, but the true avatar of U.S. presidential politics is Andrew Jackson.
 

Aardvark154

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DonQuixote said:
A recent poll indicated the statements had little effect
on likely PA voters.

Those most insensed by his comments were conservatives.
As though they were going to vote for him.
Well Don, as Twain said there are "Lies, Damn Lies and statistics" and he might have added polls. This doesn't seem to be the take (second hand reports) that the Philadelphia & Harrisburg area media are giving the story, they seem to indicate that the "story has legs."
 
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