NRA reasoning

blackrock13

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Are they afraid that the facts might prove them wrong; http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/26guns.html?pagewanted=all

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say

By MICHAEL LUO

Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.
“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of theNational Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.
Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.
“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”
The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.
The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.
Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.
“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”
The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”
The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.
In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.
“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.
In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.
“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”
Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.
The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)
Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.
After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”
Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”
C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.
The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.
Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.
Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.


This on top of handcuffing the ATF, says their are afraid of the facts.
 

dtjohnst

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Sep 29, 2010
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The only position supported strongly by the data is that gun policy is at best only very weakly linked to crime rate, and neither anti gun bans nor pro gun ccw schemes make much of a difference.
And yet...you provide none of this data? Aside from the government studies (overseen and funded by the NRA), and the NRA studies, there HAS been conclusive answers that less guns means less gun violence and less violent crime. But I suppose if you don't actually need to provide any evidence, you can make any claim. Heck, I could state that data exists to support the theory that the world is flat, and if I don't provide the studies and data, I'm no different than a someone claiming the world is only 6,000 years old and saying the proof is in one book with an unverifiable source.

Try Harvard.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

They came to a solid conclusion that you can see if you read the data there.

More gun means more homicide. Not more gun-related homicide, more homicide overall. In other words, more gun means more violent crime.

Need more? In the US, 66% of homicides are by firearm, by far the leading cause. This is in stark contrast to Canada, were firearms are way down the list of causes. States with higher rates of gun ownership have higher rates of crime overall, higher rates of violent crime, and higher rates of homicide.

Each day in the US, 13 children and teenagers are killed or wounded by firearms. EACH DAY. Those aren't people being shot my smugglers, it's people being hurt by guns. Now sure, we could educate gun owners, but they won't do it on their own. Perhaps even requiring training, like we do in Canada, would help...but guess what? That requires a change in US legislation too.

The point is that the NRA wants to put their head in the sand and do nothing but ban violent video games and identify people with mental health issues. I'm all for not giving guns to people with mental health problems, but given the epidemic of firearms violence in the US, that's not enough.

Getting rid of stuff no one has any need for, like automatic weapons or assault weapons, is a good step. But even just requiring training and education before giving out licenses would be great. The fact that the NRA is against laws that require education on firearms before letting someone own them tells me that they have no credibility. They don't want firearms safety. They don't care about firearms safety. And if they don't care, they shouldn't have a voice when discussion is had on the topic.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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Try Harvard.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

They came to a solid conclusion that you can see if you read the data there.

More gun means more homicide. Not more gun-related homicide, more homicide overall. In other words, more gun means more violent crime.
Ya but them darn college intellectual types are all liberal wingnuts who turn them numbers into lying statistics to just confuse us normal folk.

Remember, might is right.
 

fuji

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And yet...you provide none of this data?
Go look up whatever studies you like, either pro- or anti-. Eliminate the bogus stuff like Cukier's "more guns = more deaths" that are just complete propaganda, and look at the real research. You didn't link some, but you provided a link that had a reference to some. Go open up some of those studies.

Take an honest look.

What you will see is all kinds of contortions trying to eliminate the effects of income, inequality, education, age demographics, racial discrimination, and so on. In reality, most of the studies actually fail to do that, and are met awhile later with a counter pointing out that they overlooked one of these factors. The research is riddled with this back and forth.

Even the studies claiming there is a link implicitly acknowledge that it is way, way, way down the list of factors, way behind income, way behind inequality, way behind discrimination, and way behind population aging.

It's implicit even in the studies you linked: One looked only at rich countries. Why? Because if they compared rich to poor countries it would have been impossible to even attempt to deal with income effects.

In fact, because the US is such an outlier on social policy, being the only developed nation in the world that does not have universal healthcare, the only nation without effective welfare systems, the nation with the highest rates of inequality, the worst history of discrimination, and so on--because of all these factors any study that includes the US as a data point is almost universally biased by that. There is no good way to eliminate the powerful effects of all those ways in which the US differs from Canada. Studies that compare only European nations, for example, reach much more modest conclusions--and again, any gun policy effect is way behind other factors in terms of its explanatory power.

And note the shell came some of the dishonest articles you linked played. Plainly for some kinds of crime when a gun is at hand, it is used. Suicide is the classic example. Someone who wants to commit suicide, who has a gun, will use it. But take away the gun, and the person STILL commits suicide--they just hang themselves instead. So you get propaganda types like Cukier putting out studies claiming that "gun deaths" go down when guns are controlled, by noting the shift away from firearms for suicide, while not bothering to mention that in the country she studied suicide actually went UP after the controls went into place--gun suicides down, but even more hangings and other forms of suicide, so that the total rate went up.

If you really need me to link some examples I can, but what I suggest you do, so that you know I am not cherry picking, is go find a study you think really is academically sound, and take a good honest look at it. Tell me that it isn't evident in what you read that the author acknowledges all those other factors are far more significant.
 

dtjohnst

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Ok Fuji. You're right. Just because there are more gun crimes per capita in places with more guns, the problem must be something else. Despite the common sense logic and the fact that distinguished researches in the field say there's a link, there must not be. And we should cling to that in the of sports. Not a sport that gets the heart rate up and encourages weight loss and teamwork, no no, that's no good.

Some of the articles linked are in health journals, and the conclusions are published quite clearly. Not hidden as you imply.
 
Dec 28, 2006
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Statistics, or for that matter logic, are irrelevant to the NRA. Tell them that armed folks don't defend themselves well and they'll just say "train them to". The point is to spread guns, not have a serious discussion about crime and the kind of culture you want to have.
 

fuji

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Ok Fuji. You're right. Just because there are more gun crimes per capita in places with more guns, the problem must be something else. Despite the common sense logic and the fact that distinguished researches in the field say there's a link, there must not be. And we should cling to that in the of sports. Not a sport that gets the heart rate up and encourages weight loss and teamwork, no no, that's no good.

Some of the articles linked are in health journals, and the conclusions are published quite clearly. Not hidden as you imply.
I have tried to avoid turning this into dueling studies, but if you need for us to go through the futility of that we can, tomorrow, when I am not out at the pub.

Once you see the research is inconclusive, then go back and read what I wrote about gun policy being the least significant factor.

Remember. Your goal to defeat my argument above is to show that gun policy is not eclipsed by other social policy.
 

Anynym

Just a bit to the right
Dec 28, 2005
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There are no such statistics available becuase the majority of cases where a lawful gun owner preventing a crime is never recorded by police.

But even if we limit it to reported cases, it is rare for police forces to categorize such scenarios specifically.

Still, many have expressed interest in knowing how many crimes are prevented by guns (versus those committed with guns), and I have heard estimates ranging from just over 100,000 per year in the US (Brady institute, opposing pretty much all gun ownership) to something over 2 million instances per year in the US (NRA?).

But more important to the NRA's reasoning is the ability to respond within seconds, rather than several minutes, to an active shooter. And the Obama administration agrees, and has for years supported a very successful School Resource Officer program implementing pretty much exactly what the NRA proposed.
 

blackrock13

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There are no such statistics available becuase the majority of cases where a lawful gun owner preventing a crime is never recorded by police.

But even if we limit it to reported cases, it is rare for police forces to categorize such scenarios specifically.

Still, many have expressed interest in knowing how many crimes are prevented by guns (versus those committed with guns), and I have heard estimates ranging from just over 100,000 per year in the US (Brady institute, opposing pretty much all gun ownership) to something over 2 million instances per year in the US (NRA?).

But more important to the NRA's reasoning is the ability to respond within seconds, rather than several minutes, to an active shooter. And the Obama administration agrees, and has for years supported a very successful School Resource Officer program implementing pretty much exactly what the NRA proposed.
It's hard enough to record when firearms incidents happen, but trying to record when they don't happen is a fool game, thus the guess of 100,000 to 2,000,000; nothing like a guess with an error of ±900,000.
 

shack

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There are no such statistics available becuase the majority of cases where a lawful gun owner preventing a crime is never recorded by police.
So if they are not recorded and there are no stats, how do you know that it is a majority?

Or to ask another way, what is the percentage of cases not recorded?

It is an absolutely ridiculous assertion if there are not factual statistics.
 

buttercup

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Feb 28, 2005
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There are no such statistics available becuase the majority of cases where a lawful gun owner preventing a crime is never recorded by police.
Obviously, it is always recorded if a householder shoots an intruder/robber. Are you suggesting there might be circumstances where the police would not record the fact that a gunfight had taken place?

Just what does happen in these "majority of cases" that are never recorded?
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Obviously, it is always recorded if a householder shoots an intruder/robber. Are you suggesting there might be circumstances where the police would not record the fact that a gunfight had taken place?

Just what does happen in these "majority of cases" that are never recorded?
I believe the theory is that the possibility that a gun owner (or owners) might be present and armed is supposed to have prevented crimes and assaults. The stats are for the crimes that didn't take place and therefore were not recorded. But as they hugely outnumber even the massive numbers of shootings in the most heavily armed civilian population on the planet and at peace [sic], guns therefore reduce crime.

We await the NRA telling us we have only to give guns to criminals in order to make them into equally law-abiding citizens. Mind you they'd have to 'splain away a helluva lotta shootings by lawful weapons lawfully owned first. Presumably every one of those dead husbands, wives or children was a potential criminal, and that's how they'd do it.

But still, for the NRA to want to regulate gun ownership by anyone is a huge step for them.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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I believe the theory is that the possibility that a gun owner (or owners) might be present and armed is supposed to have prevented crimes and assaults. The stats are for the crimes that didn't take place and therefore were not recorded.
We're still waiting for those stats.

BTW, how does one determine stats if nothing was recorded.

Again, your assertions are totally preposterous and are impossible to back up.
 

Anynym

Just a bit to the right
Dec 28, 2005
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We await the NRA telling us we have only to give guns to criminals in order to make them into equally law-abiding citizens. Mind you they'd have to 'splain away a helluva lotta shootings by lawful weapons lawfully owned first. Presumably every one of those dead husbands, wives or children was a potential criminal, and that's how they'd do it.
We already have the left telling us that the NRA's position is that more criminals should be armed in order to prevent crime.

Hint: it isn't.
 

blackrock13

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Jun 6, 2009
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Do a search for "Trayvon" on Twitter. Won't let me link directly to tweets from web interface.


No, no, you made the claim, you show the work. If Twitter is your source, that's a laugh. Twitter is not much of a creditable source.
 

fun-guy

Executive Senior Member
Jun 29, 2005
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We await the NRA telling us we have only to give guns to criminals in order to make them into equally law-abiding citizens.
After all aren't criminals also citizens of the US and therefore aren't they covered under the 2nd Amendment and have the right to bear arms? I'm pretty sure NRA will support that, lmao.
 

fun-guy

Executive Senior Member
Jun 29, 2005
7,272
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We already have the left telling us that the NRA's position is that more criminals should be armed in order to prevent crime.

Hint: it isn't.
What in the world are you talking about? That's so preposterous that it's laughable. Here's a Political History lesson 101 for you: the far left don't anyone to have guns of any type, the far right, like the NRA, want every citizen to have guns, and there's lots of room in the middle for those conservative types.
 

Anynym

Just a bit to the right
Dec 28, 2005
2,954
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What in the world are you talking about? That's so preposterous that it's laughable. Here's a Political History lesson 101 for you: the far left don't anyone to have guns of any type, the far right, like the NRA, want every citizen to have guns, and there's lots of room in the middle for those conservative types.
You know that's not true, and I know that's not true, but I'll give you a moment to cite a source before anyone says anything more.
 
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