I don't get this comment. You have set rates for different services... for massage (which clearly excludes certain things) and for full service (which includes certain things). And I don't have any disrespect for that.
Negotiating
- Thread starter Jabba
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I don't get this comment. You have set rates for different services... for massage (which clearly excludes certain things) and for full service (which includes certain things). And I don't have any disrespect for that.
Well...the topic will never die. For as long as service is offered for a price there will be girls who encourage "specials" and/or negotiating...and, there will always be hobbyists who ask for discounts. These are realities of the "business" and, truly, no-one is to blame...check that, blame humanity. It is what it is.
No point getting pissed when someone tries...thank him for inquiring, tell him you are top notch and prices not up for discussion. Anger gets nowhere. As a hobbyist, I respect the class a lady shows when she sticks to her value professionally and not angrily. (It actually makes me consider stepping out of my comfort zone)
No point getting pissed when someone tries...thank him for inquiring, tell him you are top notch and prices not up for discussion. Anger gets nowhere. As a hobbyist, I respect the class a lady shows when she sticks to her value professionally and not angrily. (It actually makes me consider stepping out of my comfort zone)
That makes me wonder... how do guys react when they are not soliciting for a discount and a girl offers a "deal" trying to get you to spend more? I guess some guys are thrilled by it...I definitely wouldn't blame a guy for saying no. lol but if it is the actual act of initiating a conversation with the intent to bargain that is at question, then I definitely would say that it's a no-no in my book. Many girls will typically encourage a bargain-hunter to see a girl who entertains bartering.Every SP and every "customer" has a choice to conduct business in whatever way they want... which I think would therefore mean that you can blame the consumer or the provider for versus blaming "the business".
There was a thread from a couple of months ago about pre-paying and I arranged with one of the better reviewed SPs to do that. So she gets the benefit of the cash upfront to do with as she pleases and I get a price more to my liking (X total for Yvisits < Z*Y, where X is prepay amt and Z is normal hrly rate). And to tilt it more in her favour, somewhat, I also told her there would be a time constraint such that if I didn't use up the visits within x months I'd forfeit the balance. I won't reveal who she is because she may not appreciate others trying to do this (although I can see it being a good idea and she said she'd offer it discreetly to other regulars -- yes, I trust her). So, getting back to the point of the thread, this did count as a negotiation and I think we're both happy with it.
That makes me wonder... how do guys react when they are not soliciting for a discount and a girl offers a "deal" trying to get you to spend more? I guess some guys are thrilled by it...I definitely wouldn't blame a guy for saying no. lol but if it is the actual act of initiating a conversation with the intent to bargain that is at question, then I definitely would say that it's a no-no in my book. Many girls will typically encourage a bargain-hunter to see a girl who entertains bartering.
If I understand this post correctly, I think this scenario has a whole lot of assumptions packed into a small space.
Upfront & automatic discounting doesn't necessarily translate into upselling, but it may invite a negotiating atmosphere. Sure, some guys may be into that & I personally don't see anything wrong with starting a conversation.
I don't see the need for any blame assignment.
Just the nature of give and take.
I agree with SP's or MPA's (body slide service). Any discussions on reducing the basic rate would in my mind, make the service much worse.. sets the session on a bad tone. I remember after a while in massage in Toronto, I would just state I want a body slide up front. At first some attendants would take time to ask before offering topless, nude, reverse or slide, and it was just a lot easier to get it out of the way up front and remove any tension. Where options are open at beginning of session, tends to make it awkward.
As I mentioned before higher mileage SC's are a unique part of the industry. Girls will just aim ridiculously high because they already have you there, The dancers basically go full in expecting to negotiate as well, so I don't think it affects service level either. I'm not a huge SC fan and the club I was in last week, I was hoping to see an Asian hottie who had given me a great grind the month before. The ridiculous prices for other services and negotiations are not appealing to me. But last week, I found this dancer extremely hot (and knowing the club I was at, knew A-B and C would likely be offered right away), and I was willing to go in to a negotiate state as much as I hate it. I knew the dancer would state something stupid high at first (I think dancers have to do that by law), and I just kept on saying not at that price. I don't think it made the service any worse. Extra Services from dancers typically lack intimacy any way, which is why I don't frequent this type of activity - but in this case, I was in the mood and she was really hot... and I knew I had to negotiate ... or in this case keep saying no for a while as she was really pushing the upsell.
Gotcha. Certainly prefer the one hourly rate model for SP's, and she offers what she offers (and YMMV).
I'm pretty sure that by law, dancers are not allowed to offer sexual services... As an SC customer I actually have no idea how things work in the VIP because I always worry that every extra-intimate touch might result in a surprise bill at the end!I can definitely see how negotiations would be unavoidable in that particular environment. It's definitely a whole 'nother world to me!
At the end of the day the SP world to me is the easiest for a customer to navigate without any negotiations (even though I am more of a massage guy). Your going to get FS and a BJ of some sort at a set price from an SP. The unknown is the chemistry and attitude and intimacy, but price is set.
When the other world in the industry delve into SP level services it can get weird and typically involves additional costs (although not always). Customers can get played into feeling special... or in many cases just play themselves into feeling special (see the infamous Toronto Massage Board "Should I date her" threads. My two favourite massage girls over the years never got into these extra services ...they were hot and sensual, but there was no need to negotiate. Session just went on, and you paid the BS fee at the end..
In Ottawa it seems like many MPA's are charging very high rates for additional services and openly advertising it in an ambiguous fashion, but using "only for my special classy gentleman" approach to justify it. Whether its only for special guys or not, or what exactly it is, is a mystery up front. Here is an example.
http://www.lolasexymassage.com/Donations.html
You can't avoid discussing what is in the 350-450 session, because well its totally ambiguous and has to be discussed in the room.
Upsells and "extras" at last minute piss me off. I always ask the all-inclusive rates as I make sure to never have extra $ in my pocket when I arrive. Unless I have seen the lady a couple times prior, I am distrustful and keep extra to a minimum. I always wonder things like whether or not I will be robbed while in the shower.
I remember one SP advertised she does it all. "Love to swallow and, love, love greek". I am quoted "$220/hr, no restrictions except condom during penetration"...I get there and we are heated up, I request lube to start greek and she asks for $100. WTF? Forget it, I opt for cim instead...oops...that's $50. I stop everything and show her the text..."$220 is my starting rate". I hadn't handed over envelope yet so I removed $120 and left. In the end, I paid $100 for 10 minutes of dfk and no-finish bbbj.
Of course from the SP perspective, it'll be nice to always get the rate you demand.
But negotiating with a Dentist/Lawyer, both of which I've done is not quite the same. Those are well formed professions with well define sets of expectations and outcomes. Lets say text book almost. A governing board in which we can dispute quality of service and cross examination of said service. A full refund could be demanded. Even a charge for mal practice.
How do I get a refund for a sub par BJ or a DBE (dead body experience) when I clearly paid for PSE? Is there going to be third party arbitration? Can I demand to have a ladies's license to escort taken away?
There are very few who I think are true professionals, most of them on the red board, and especially those who spans both boards and then some. But the number of shade tree mechanics out there significantly out weighs them.
Not every girl deserves standard rate, an only the true artist commands premium.
Negotiation itself is an art, and in this body service industry, it's a fine art for the savvy and saucy.
I can confidently say I've negotiated with all class, even with PK before. But more importantly I know when NOT to haggle.
Not all negotiation goes well, and I've been left to "handle" the situation myself.
Agreed, Cleo, which is why those discussions of women discriminating against certain types of clients is given a pass by me because this service cannot be compared to other services, either, where it would be morally (let alone legally) wrong to deny service. They are offering their bodies (and most often the penetration of such) for our amusement, not their carpentry or plumbing or house-cleaning abilities ...... unless :wink:
I would tend to agree with you Cleo as well.. But to make a point I used this example. In all reality it is a completely different ball of wax and really isn't much out there to be a proper comparison.
Technically...no...SP's cannot be considered professionals...as there is no body to govern their services like Engineers (Order of Engineers), Accounts (CGA/CPA), Lawyers (Bar), Doctors (CMA), etc. They can act and behave professionally, but I would not go as far to call them professionals. I am not trying to make a point about negotiating rates but rather the nomenclature of professionals. If I hire an accredited electrician to do work on my house, and he botches the job, I can sue the Electricians Union (probably an uphill battle mind you), but if I hire a handyman with no accreditation then it is caveat emptor, which is the case with unaccredited providers of service.
All of that said...I agree with Cleo's point in that you simply cannot compare this industry to any other provider of service, given the nature of the service.
I would personally never try to negotiate a rate when I call a service or go to a massage place in Ottawa. If a lady's prices are out of my range, I just won't go to see her.
Now, in San Francisco, I once popped into an Asian massage place where negotiating for both price and services is expected (if you don't, expect to get ripped off badly). So I did it there, bringing down the price of a BJ from 160$ to 100$. But I felt uncomfortable and cheap doing even that. I also did some negotiating for prices while abroad in France, Italy, China, Japan, Thailand and Taiwan. Again, it's expected in a lot of places, but I would still just rather be told an all-inclusive rate and either take it or not.
KoG
Now, in San Francisco, I once popped into an Asian massage place where negotiating for both price and services is expected (if you don't, expect to get ripped off badly). So I did it there, bringing down the price of a BJ from 160$ to 100$. But I felt uncomfortable and cheap doing even that. I also did some negotiating for prices while abroad in France, Italy, China, Japan, Thailand and Taiwan. Again, it's expected in a lot of places, but I would still just rather be told an all-inclusive rate and either take it or not.
KoG
Not to disagree with anyone, but to be considered a "professional" by definition simply means all you are paid to do it. Doesn't mean you have to be any good at it.. LOL
I think this is a simplified definition. In most minds and dictionaries a professional is someone who engages in an actual profession, requiring specific education. But we all digress, and I mostly agree with what you're saying. I have a professional day job, by anyone's standards, and I do consider myself a professional SP as well because I conduct myself and my business in a professional manner. Some might find that laughable, but regardless of which job I'm doing, I'm still me & that's my view.
As for negotiating, the way I see it is that whether you view my service as a service or a commodity, in the culture I'm accustomed to, bartering is considered tacky for either service or commodity. I also believe my rates are below what I could easily demand, so when I receive emails or requests for deals and negotiations, I'm instantly peeved. That said, I don't see any need to be rude. My reaction is based on my values and experience, so I keep it to myself. I politely let people know that's not something I'm interested in. That said, when I receive emails and messages that read "bj Rate??!!!" I'm tempted not to reply at all.
I guess the point that many have made is that this particular little world of ours is uncharted ground, so we are all going to carve out our little comfort zone and live in it-- but there's no need to forget manners when asking to open negotiations or when faced with the question. It doesn't all need to be so personal and emotionally-driven. Professional, not professional, take an offer or leave it. We're all just trying to meet each others' various needs & have fun doing it.
As for negotiating, the way I see it is that whether you view my service as a service or a commodity, in the culture I'm accustomed to, bartering is considered tacky for either service or commodity. I also believe my rates are below what I could easily demand, so when I receive emails or requests for deals and negotiations, I'm instantly peeved. That said, I don't see any need to be rude. My reaction is based on my values and experience, so I keep it to myself. I politely let people know that's not something I'm interested in. That said, when I receive emails and messages that read "bj Rate??!!!" I'm tempted not to reply at all.
I guess the point that many have made is that this particular little world of ours is uncharted ground, so we are all going to carve out our little comfort zone and live in it-- but there's no need to forget manners when asking to open negotiations or when faced with the question. It doesn't all need to be so personal and emotionally-driven. Professional, not professional, take an offer or leave it. We're all just trying to meet each others' various needs & have fun doing it.
Listen ..... It's a business. Bodies / cars/ medico- dental service
It's being advertised like a business and there are variabilities in rates and services
Negotiating is normal for many types of services
I think it is not fair to say you want the hobby legalized like all other legitimate businesses and then take offence when you are treated as such (yes for sure dentists- lawyers ) get negotiated with
As well it helps let sps know what the market will tolerate. Too many requests and maybe your fees are a bit high.
As well if sps are going to say its ymmv that also sets up room for offence to be taken from clients because there are differences amongst different clients.
Just saying
It's being advertised like a business and there are variabilities in rates and services
Negotiating is normal for many types of services
I think it is not fair to say you want the hobby legalized like all other legitimate businesses and then take offence when you are treated as such (yes for sure dentists- lawyers ) get negotiated with
As well it helps let sps know what the market will tolerate. Too many requests and maybe your fees are a bit high.
As well if sps are going to say its ymmv that also sets up room for offence to be taken from clients because there are differences amongst different clients.
Just saying
mno3: Agreed, people are going to ask and that's how free market works... If you're upset that I take offense, you may have misunderstood. Your "you" is really ambiguous. See, people take offence to plenty of things-- and they have a right to-- ie. We "can" take offense to anything on earth. And we will. Clients will too, of course if a ymmv scenario comes into play. What goes on in someone's head is no one's business but his/her own. I'm not saying people shouldn't ask. I'm not saying SPs should or should not be offended. I'm saying that we can all probably learn a lesson here and there in dealing with each other respectfully, respecting boundaries, and/or not taking business that's inherently personal too personally.
I tend to agree with mn03 (and it rhymes too!). I negotiate with the lawyers I need to deal with at my office. And the accountants. I negotiate when I buy goods for the company, when I hire employees, when I buy a car, when I hire a contractor to do work on my house, etc. etc. Some of those relationships are rather personal (hiring an employee for example) and thus the negotiation can get tricky.
If handled with tact (a big IF) I think that in general, it is OK to negotiate with an SP. That said, I never do because I recognize that a relationship with an SP is very personal and intimate. I do not want to risk any cracks in that relationship over say, a possible $20 reduction. It is just not worth it. So I either take the rate and see the SP or if I feel it may be too high for me, I just don't book in the first place. But that is me. On a logical level, it is OK to negotiate in my view (but with tact).
With an MP, things can be quite different. For example, some MPs are really asking for a negotiation. Maybe inadvertantly, but some are asking nevertheless. I have had more than a few experiences where, after the flip comes the negotiation, even if I do not want to negotiate. It usually starts like this: "So.... are there any other services I can offer you?" And then when I ask for the menu, comes the lead-in to the negotiation: "How much do you have to spend?"
And there it is. In effect I have been asked to declare up-front how much money I am willing to part with, before the MP tells me what is on the menu and what is the price for each service level. I have to say, I have little patience for this approach and never let myself get sucked into playing that game.
If handled with tact (a big IF) I think that in general, it is OK to negotiate with an SP. That said, I never do because I recognize that a relationship with an SP is very personal and intimate. I do not want to risk any cracks in that relationship over say, a possible $20 reduction. It is just not worth it. So I either take the rate and see the SP or if I feel it may be too high for me, I just don't book in the first place. But that is me. On a logical level, it is OK to negotiate in my view (but with tact).
With an MP, things can be quite different. For example, some MPs are really asking for a negotiation. Maybe inadvertantly, but some are asking nevertheless. I have had more than a few experiences where, after the flip comes the negotiation, even if I do not want to negotiate. It usually starts like this: "So.... are there any other services I can offer you?" And then when I ask for the menu, comes the lead-in to the negotiation: "How much do you have to spend?"
And there it is. In effect I have been asked to declare up-front how much money I am willing to part with, before the MP tells me what is on the menu and what is the price for each service level. I have to say, I have little patience for this approach and never let myself get sucked into playing that game.
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