NBA Playoffs Thread

[RTRD]

Yes...yes it is...

MLAM, just one thing on your point about Phoenix that you did not really address... Dallas might have won the series had Dampier been able to stay out of foul trouble. It was ridiculous how easy this guy was scoring and rebounding in that series.

Now Erick D is not Tim Duncan yet he was able to rip the Phoenix big guys at will.

The fact of the matter is that if you believe that Nash's defense sucks Amare Stodemire defensive out of this world bad!!!..

Amare Stoudemire is a TREMENDOUS talent, but he is playing out of position at center.

Really, it is a reflection of Mike D'Antoni philosophy, which is that he wants to put the best talent on the floor and have them simply out play his opponent. Thus rather than play Stoudemire at PF where he belongs, he has him at center which enables him to put another race horse on the floor.

Of course, D'Antoni learned all this in the Euro leagues, where often times there were significant talent disparities between teams (meaning you literally could run an opponent off the floor some nights) and no one bothered to play defense. Thanks to the rigors of NBA scheduling and the lackadaisical attitude many NBA players / teams have during the regular season, it also gave the Suns a league leading number of wins.

During the regular season.

Now what Mike is discovering is that the NBA's good teams (the sort that make the playoffs) also have talent - that the disparity isn't nearly as dramatic and cannot necessarily be exploited with ease. He is learning that the NBA playoff set up of engaging an opponent multiple times in a series allows for adjustments. And he is learning that match ups matter - that you can't just say that collectively my 5 guys are better than your 5 guys. Oh yeah, and there is this thing called defense...

Of course, Steve Nash could have told him all this - Nash learned it in Dallas playing for Don Nelson, another guy who also loved the European style of play and was more focused on basketball purity than actually building a team and system that could win an NBA championship.

I am sure D'Antoni is beside himself with frustration. His two best players, Nash and Stoudemire, are having a fantastic series, putting up fantasy league numbers. How can the Suns be down 0-2?

Here's a hint on how it is happening Mike - the Spurs 3 best players are also putting up some great numbers, and SA is getting some serious contributions from other role players who are LOVING the defense your team isn't playing. Your team is making Robert Horry and Brent Barry look like mid level stars, versus the bench riding role players they actually are.

This isn't the Euro leagues Mike - You can't run a SERIOUS NBA team out of the gym. The Spurs might not have as much raw talent pound for pound and man for man as the Suns, but hell, even a 33 yo one dimensional Brent Barry can drop 20 points on you if you refuse to guard him. And BTW, the Spurs do have a few guys who can play...Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. You might try d-ing up on them every once in a while too.

We've seen this business model before - play great and entertaining basketball, win lots of games, sell lots of tickets, get great ratings and ink a big local TV contract, increase the value of your franchise, and get your ass booted every year from the playoffs. The Dallas Maverick's have this system down cold.

It must be deja vu for Stevie boy...

 

[RTRD]

And my thoughts in response....

Defense is a team game...

It is, but in the NBA matchups matter. There is so much ISO that you have to be able to defend YOUR MAN - else you will be exploited. This is even more the case since as you pointed out the Suns do not have a big shot blocker in the middle to revolve a defense around and to cover up mistakes. Take away that, along with zones, zones traps and the other defensive techniques you see more at the HS and college level and you are left pretty much with individual match ups. You of course also have team defensive philosophies, but IMHO that represents more of a commitment to it, versus an actual system. Ginobili is a poor defender (relatively speaking). But he plays for a team that is committed to defense, so he tries his best, gets help from teammates, and directs traffic to Duncan to erase his mistakes. Summary - you are right, it is a team game, but in the NBA, match ups matter, and Nash's inability to stop his man is getting exploited BIG TIME in this series.

D'Antonio has stated time and again that he wants to play an up-tempo game.

He'll learn. See my previous rant. Then again, Don Nelson never did learn, so only time will tell I suppose.

I think that 80% of the league is more talented than Mr. Nash, it's how Nash runs the game that makes him special.

Nash IS a special player. I just don't think he is a championship point guard, nor do I think he was the MVP.

Shaq is Invaluable... of that there is no doubt... but was he more valuable to his team than Nash??? Not really...

We will agree to disagree. I say Shaq was more valuable because his contribution, both on the court and off, was wholly unique. No one else on the planet could have done what he did in Miami. What Nash did in Phoenix was a mighty achievement as well, but one that...ok...maybe "only" 3 or 4 other players could have also made. Nash is replaceable (by another super star PG). Shaq is not. That makes him the Most Valuable Player, IMHO.

 

[RTRD]

Oh like we wouldn't be debating it if he hadn't won!!!

Ok MLAM - I get it - You're the 2nd coming of Red Auerbach! You do actually make some good points with respect to the Suns/Spurs match-up - but on this whole overworked Nash MVP thing - what value is there in any of this conjecture regarding what could have been, had other players been involved? This makes no sense to me.

Every basketball loving Canadian in the country would be screaming bloody murder on here and every other message board....

 

[zydeco]

Well, you make a good point there - no doubt about that.

 

[slowandeasy]

What Nash did in Phoenix was a mighty achievement as well, but one that...ok...maybe "only" 3 or 4 other players could have also made. Nash is replaceable (by another super star PG). Shaq is not. That makes him the Most Valuable Player, IMHO.

When you put that way..... I can see your point on Shaq....

I had previously stated that Phoenix would not get by SA.... mainly because I agree with you that D'Antoni and his players will have to come to terms with playing better defense. As long as D'Antoni is ont stuck on proving that he can win with his system and to hell with conventional wisdom, he will be alright... but if he digs his heels in, he could become another Don Nelson...
I hope that it does not turn out that way...

Personally, I have not liked how they have played in these playoffs... I would like to see them run a more diverse offense that does not require Nash to play with the ball so much...

The really need some better sets where they just dump the ball into Amare and let him work...

MLAM... appreciate a good b-ball discussion...

 

[homonger]

Well, it's becoming predictable, but the Spurs took the Suns apart yet again tonight. I don't know what the deal is with Shawn Marion--he had been invisible. Stoudamire was a monster, and Nash played okay, but the Suns basically lost the game in the 2nd quarter, and even though they played hard in the 4th, just couldn't make it up. 10 points in the 2nd quarter? Unbelievable.

Only question now is who the Spurs will play in the Finals. Either way, it will be interesting.

 

[the_big_E]

maybe the Suns will pull a Red Sox?

okay not bloody likely

 

[RTRD]

Wait....

MLAM... appreciate a good b-ball discussion...

...does that mean I might know just a little bit about this game??

Regarding feeding Amare Stoudemire, actually, he's been playing well...really well. That guy is THE TRUTH. Which is funny, because typically when your big guys do well, you team does well. They score, they rebound, they get the other guys big men into foul trouble, etc. Somehow Popovich identified that stopping Stoudemire wasn't important...that it was Marion (who did out rebound Stoudemire during the regular season) who was the key. Who knew? I tell you, that Popovich is the most underrated coach in the league...

Hey Mike...you been listening? Remember that thing about adjustments that I mentioned before. You got a taste of that last night. The Spurs, having been amused to this point but realizing they might have been taking a bit of a risk playing out of form, decided last night to make Stevie Nash disappear. 3 assists...6 turnovers. Hell, he even shot 8 of 18 from the field, with only 1 of 3 from the arc. I bet he hasn't seen defense like in that 2nd quarter all season.

Mikey...look, this will help you out next year. Stoudemire is a freak. Just ungodly. But you see what is happening? At center he is an aberration. The Spurs are just ignoring him - they rather keep Duncan in the game and have him get off (you been noticing that too huh?) rather than have their best defensive big man even bother. You move Amare to PF where he belongs next season, his production dips a little (because he won't be quicker than EVERYBODY anymore, just 95% of people), but then you can put a real center in the 5 spot to play some defense (or at least hack Duncan up a bit...can't do that with Stoudemire because you need him on the floor) and Stoudemire starts causing foul problems because the match up is legitimate, PF on PF. It might also take some of that burden off of Marion, who now has to play a PF role because he knows Amare won't rebound in the center spot.

Mike, I'm just trying to help. I know you were Coach of The Year and all, and I know you won title in the Euro leagues as a player and as a coach, so I know you SEE what I am talking about. I just figure your ego has tuned it out. But if you hear it from someone else...just maybe it will stick.

Take my word for it. Settle for the 50 - 55 wins you'll get next season once you stop trying to run a track meet every night and put the right personnel on the floor and play some "D". Its either that or watch Avery Johnson eliminate you guys next season, because HE gets it, trust me.

 

[homonger]

Somehow Popovich identified that stopping Stoudemire wasn't important...that it was Marion (who did out rebound Stoudemire during the regular season) who was the key. Who knew? I tell you, that Popovich is the most underrated coach in the league...

You move Amare to PF where he belongs next season, his production dips a little (because he won't be quicker than EVERYBODY anymore, just 95% of people), but then you can put a real center in the 5 spot to play some defense (or at least hack Duncan up a bit...can't do that with Stoudemire because you need him on the floor) and Stoudemire starts causing foul problems because the match up is legitimate, PF on PF. It might also take some of that burden off of Marion, who now has to play a PF role because he knows Amare won't rebound in the center spot.

If stopping Marion as the key has been the Spurs' grand plan, then it has worked like a charm. Stoudamire has scored over 30 in every game this series, and the Spurs still are kicking the Suns' ass.

As for bringing in a "real center"--there's the problem. It's not like these guys grow on trees. Unless you are suggesting any stiff can fill the role. Jake Voskuhl, this is your moment!

As a non-sequitur, what has happened to Glenn Robinson? Popovich is clearly going primarily with a 7 man rotation (only Horry and Barry off the bench), and it is obviously working, but I was just curious. I thought having a scoring guy like Robinson off the bench was going to be a big asset for the Spurs, which shows you how much I know.

Funny line by Bill Walton last night after Brent Barry flubbed a defensive rebound and accidentally tipped the ball into the Phoenix basket--"Brent Barry is one of the better rebounders... in his family".

 

[zydeco]

I think Robinson's mother passed away in the last few days. Perhaps some personal issues to work through on that front.

 

[RTRD]

You've got a point....

As for bringing in a "real center"--there's the problem. It's not like these guys grow on trees. Unless you are suggesting any stiff can fill the role. Jake Voskuhl, this is your moment!

...but I wasn't thinking along the O'Neal, Duncan or Ming level.

A quick and completely unscientific or precise informal count by me comes up with at least 15 guys in the NBA who should be able to consistently (if not every single night) give you a double / double out of the center spot, while blocking a couple shots and challenging a few others. That is all the Suns need...someone who is good for 5 fouls against the opposing center, who can challenge the people driving the lane that Nash will let get by, and who will put back some offensive rebounds while not screwing up every time Nash finds them standing all alone within 5 feet of the basket. A Brendan Haywood / Jamaal Magloire / Erick Dampier type.

These guys tend to come WAY over priced for trade or free agents, because as you said, they don't grow on trees. But they are out there. Besides, if you’re the Phoenix Suns, your first round picks aren’t going to be worth much for the next few years anyway if things go to plan. Might as well trade one or two of them to get a starting center.

And...hmmm...a bit of research shows that if you are willing to over pay a bit (ok more than a bit) for him, such a player might be on the market. Averaged a near double double while coming off the bench for a strong defense playoff team...while blocking nearly 2 shots per game. Very athletic, runs the floor like a racehorse, fitting right in with the Suns "system". He is known as an enthusiastic player who hustles on both ends of the floor. Is prone to errors of youth and exuberance, but coaching and maturity can change that. And he will be a free agent this year.

Mike, if you can convince your buddy Bryan to open the checkbook, Tyson Chandler might be a REAL GOOD fit. Marion...Stoudemire...Chandler. It would be the most athletic, best rebounding front line in the NBA, with each guy having a decent post up and face up game. Move Stoudemire to PF where he belongs, and he might not be such a defensive liability. Get Marion some help on the boards, and he might have something left come playoff time. Get Chandler a fat paycheck and some starter minutes, and he might turn into the 15 and 12 guy that he seems to give every indication he can be. Yeah, yeah, you'll have to (over) pay Marcus Camby type prices, but it could work man, I'm telling you. Shaq is getting (relatively) old and starting to break down – take him off table and Chandler can guard anybody else in the league (including Duncan and Garnett) if you coach him up.

Bryan...Mike...you read it here first.

 

[homonger]

...but I wasn't thinking along the O'Neal, Duncan or Ming level.

I hate to pick out one thing to be critical about in your otherwise fine post, but the guy's last name is Yao, not Ming. It is Chinese custom to have your family name come first. Chinese film star Zhang Ziyi recently changed her stage name to Ziyi Zhang to be more in accordance with Western custom.

How about Kwame Brown? He's available.

 

[RTRD]

I think....

I hate to pick out one thing to be critical about in your otherwise fine post, but the guy's last name is Yao, not Ming. It is Chinese custom to have your family name come first. Chinese film star Zhang Ziyi recently changed her stage name to Ziyi Zhang to be more in accordance with Western custom.

How about Kwame Brown? He's available.

...Brown is either going to be a slow bloomer (like Jermaine O'Neal) or a bust. The fact that he regressed this season is NOT a good sign. And Phoenix needs to win now - Nash is already on the wrong side of 30.

So the Spurs closed the Suns out last night, essentially proving that when Tim Duncan is Tim Duncan (as opposed to the imposter who had only 15 points and went 3 for 12 from the line in game 4) the Suns simply can't compete, even with their "center" just losing his damn mind...

Amare Stoudemire...sweet lord, if somebody ever decides to teach that kid some fundamentals...whoa. UNREAL. Can you imagine how good he would be had he spent just a couple years having Coach K or Bobby Knight teach him a few things??

Here is a bit of further discussion on that point

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2005/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2062914

...along with some documentation that apparently Bryan Colangelo and Mike D'Antoni have already read my previously provided advice and plan to act on it

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2005/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2071901&num=2

"And when faced with a precision opponent in the Spurs' class, Phoenix has found its lack of interior defense to be fatal. Which explains why Colangelo, even before this series started, acknowledged that "we won't stop looking for a true five" to allow Stoudemire to return to his natural power forward spot, as Amare desires."

I wonder if my consultant fee check is in the mail...

 

[homonger]

Amare Stoudemire...sweet lord, if somebody ever decides to teach that kid some fundamentals...whoa. UNREAL. Can you imagine how good he would be had he spent just a couple years having Coach K or Bobby Knight teach him a few things??

As much as I had to marvel at some of the amazing things this guy can do, I am not a huge fan of his because I don't think he is fundamentally sound at all. He is not a good defensive player in terms of position defense, doesn't seem to like to mix it up inside, and his outside shot is suspect. I am also not sure if he isn't already fully formed. I think there are things you can teach someone, or things someone can develop, after they've reached the pros. But I don't know about this guy... I hope I am wrong.

Back patting time... even though this series was kind of a yawner, I managed to make a little money on it, taking the Suns in Game 4 (at a money line of +230) and the Spurs last night (money line of +125). It just seemed reasonable the Suns had a shot to win at least one game of this series, and likewise, I didn't think there was anyway the Spurs would let the Suns extend the series, even playing on their own home floor.

The Pistons are a money line bet tonight in the +170, +180 range, and I think that is also a decent bet.

 

[holden]

As much as I had to marvel at some of the amazing things this guy can do, I am not a huge fan of his because I don't think he is fundamentally sound at all. He is not a good defensive player in terms of position defense, doesn't seem to like to mix it up inside, and his outside shot is suspect. I am also not sure if he isn't already full formed. I think there are things you can teach someone, or things someone can develop, after they've reached the pros. But I don't know about this guy... I hope I am wrong.

Fully formed or not, the dude was scoring 30 + pts against one of the best defensive teams in the NBA going up against Ducan and Nazer and rebounding in the double digits - in the play-offs

if he is fully formed already, he is one of the best if not the best big man in basketball

and if he is not fully formed, watch out - the dominace is incredible

his weakness is his defense, this will come in time as he understands team defense(he has the athleticism obviously to guard any big man, it's just learning how to play defense), he's only 21 or 22 yrs old

and his shot is getting better by leaps and bounds as per last night's game when he was hitting 18 footers

the only thing is he has to learn discpline and control his emotions, couple of times during the series, he commited the most idiotic fouls when his team needed a score. He let his emotions get the better of him.

 

[zydeco]

I think it's still a bit premature to understand how this player might develop. I mean he does show some signs of greatness - and he's very young. Time will tell, there could be a tremendous upside with him - but I think it's also premature to be talking in terms of the best big man in the game.

 

[homonger]

Fully formed or not, the dude was scoring 30 + pts against one of the best defensive teams in the NBA going up against Ducan and Nazer and rebounding in the double digits - in the play-offs

Absolutely correct, but I wonder if, as has already been suggested, that letting Stoudamire get his points, but keeping Marion and Richardson under check was the Spurs' game plan all along. I'm not saying the Spurs let him score, but I don't know if they really made it a priority to stop him. In any case, they won, so it obviously worked. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a very talented player, but let's not go crazy saying he is the best big man in basketball. I can think of at least 4 other big guys I'd rather build my team around.

As for the Pistons last night, so much for my great ideas.

 

[zydeco]

Well it looks like Wade will play on Saturday - but who knows how severe his injury is or how effective he'll be. I think/hope Shaq will step up with a huge game - with or without Wade - and the Heat will clinch.

 

[holden]

let's not go crazy saying he is the best big man in basketball. I can think of at least 4 other big guys I'd rather build my team around.

I said one of the best if not the best - based on his age and his ability

but i'm curious who are the 4 big man ahead of him

Duncan only his defense is better (leadership also)

Shaq - amare has better numbers in play-off

Garnett - can't even carry a team(I always considered garnett over rated)

and I don't know who the 4th is, can't Yao

 

[zydeco]

holden - At this point in their respective NBA careers - I'd probably take all 4 of the players you mention ahead of him (the one I'm least certain about is Yao), and I'd also add Ben Wallace to the list.