NBA Playoffs Thread
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Game 1 of the Spurs/Suns Western Conference Finals is in the books, and the Spurs looked like they continue to have the Suns' number (after winning 2 of 3 in the regular season). I didn't watch too much of the game, although I had it on for background noise, but it seemed whenever I looked up, Barry or Horry was making a 3.
Although I won my bet on the Spurs, I didn't like how crummy their free throw shooting was down the stretch. And it looks like Joe Johnson will be back, so that should help the Suns, and I think they will win Game 2. I still like the Spurs though, overall, in this series. I think the Suns win the next one, the Spurs win the next two at their gym, the Suns win Game 5, and the Spurs end it back on their home floor in Game 6.
Although I won my bet on the Spurs, I didn't like how crummy their free throw shooting was down the stretch. And it looks like Joe Johnson will be back, so that should help the Suns, and I think they will win Game 2. I still like the Spurs though, overall, in this series. I think the Suns win the next one, the Spurs win the next two at their gym, the Suns win Game 5, and the Spurs end it back on their home floor in Game 6.
Play some D!
Holy crap - 43 points. I can't believe the Suns gave up 43 points in the 4th quarter. This is gonna end in a hurry if they don't D up.
The Pistons own Shaq - they'll play him the same way they played him last year in the fianls. Give Shaq his 20 - 25 points and double up or shut down Wade (like Kobe last year) and the Piston should win. One on one, Prince has the height and athleticism to shut down Wade. Wallace and Ben should handle Shaq in the low post. With Shaq, the Pistons in 6; without Shaq 4 maybe 5 games.
Holy crap - 43 points. I can't believe the Suns gave up 43 points in the 4th quarter. This is gonna end in a hurry if they don't D up.
The Pistons own Shaq - they'll play him the same way they played him last year in the fianls. Give Shaq his 20 - 25 points and double up or shut down Wade (like Kobe last year) and the Piston should win. One on one, Prince has the height and athleticism to shut down Wade. Wallace and Ben should handle Shaq in the low post. With Shaq, the Pistons in 6; without Shaq 4 maybe 5 games.
I didn't get to see the Pistons/Heat game last night, but I'm not surprised the Pistons won. I think the Pistons' starting 5 is about as well balanced, versatile, and highly functioning unit as there is in the NBA. If they can neutralize Shack and Wade, I just don't think Eddie Jones and Haslem can beat them. The Pistons can beat you in so many different ways.
Back in the West, I am really impressed with the Spurs. They have experience, they have depth, they have better defense. Horry and Barry are coming up big. Parker and Ginobli have been stellar. Again, their Achilles heel is their free throw shooting. They made tonight's game a little hairier than it needed to be by missing a couple down the stretch.
Back in the West, I am really impressed with the Spurs. They have experience, they have depth, they have better defense. Horry and Barry are coming up big. Parker and Ginobli have been stellar. Again, their Achilles heel is their free throw shooting. They made tonight's game a little hairier than it needed to be by missing a couple down the stretch.
It's not that Phoenix doesnt have depth (Joe Johnson could return for game 3) its that they have no defense! Spurs are pretty much beating them at their own game as they score at will, however they get the crucial defensive stops whereas Phoenix has yet to in this series.
You are dead on...
"Game 1 = Spurs 121 Suns 114
Nash played a hell of a game, as did Amare Stoudemire. But as predicted in that same Shaq MVP thread by yours truly, Nash was unable to stop either Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili.
Steve Nash is a hell of player, and the Suns are a hell of a team. But the game is up now. His / Their inability to defend will be their demise against the Spurs...as predicted in that Shaq thread by yours truly.
It isn't just about keeping the score up or down...as the Spurs showed, they are pretty athletic themselves, and can play the running game. It is about being able to get a stop when you need one. The Spurs can. The Suns cannot...in part because Steve Nash cannot guard your average NBA point guard, let alone a talent like Tony Parker.
Spurs in 6"
People, I know most of you love to ride the Steve Nash party wagon, but there is a reason he has never played in a finals, despite being on teams with great talent. Any team that would have Steve Nash as its point guard is a team that clearly doesn't embrace defense, and at some point in the playoffs you have to be able to defend. It isn't about keeping the score down - it is about being able to get critical stops. The Suns couldn't guard my college intramural team...when push comes to shove they simply can't stop people, and that is in no small part because their point guard (Nash) can in no way, shape or form disrupt the other teams point guard...which means the opposing teams gets to run their offense as they see fit.
Which brings me back to my orginal point from weeks ago - no way Steve Nash was the MVP. He is a very, very good player - but he also hurts his team in some ways. Maybe that isn't critical during the regular season (so maybe he was the regular season MVP after all...not!!), but when things get serious, I promise you NBA GMs would pick at least 3 or 4 other point guards ahead of Nash...
..as I stated in a different thread.the_big_E said:
"Game 1 = Spurs 121 Suns 114
Nash played a hell of a game, as did Amare Stoudemire. But as predicted in that same Shaq MVP thread by yours truly, Nash was unable to stop either Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili.
Steve Nash is a hell of player, and the Suns are a hell of a team. But the game is up now. His / Their inability to defend will be their demise against the Spurs...as predicted in that Shaq thread by yours truly.
It isn't just about keeping the score up or down...as the Spurs showed, they are pretty athletic themselves, and can play the running game. It is about being able to get a stop when you need one. The Spurs can. The Suns cannot...in part because Steve Nash cannot guard your average NBA point guard, let alone a talent like Tony Parker.
Spurs in 6"
People, I know most of you love to ride the Steve Nash party wagon, but there is a reason he has never played in a finals, despite being on teams with great talent. Any team that would have Steve Nash as its point guard is a team that clearly doesn't embrace defense, and at some point in the playoffs you have to be able to defend. It isn't about keeping the score down - it is about being able to get critical stops. The Suns couldn't guard my college intramural team...when push comes to shove they simply can't stop people, and that is in no small part because their point guard (Nash) can in no way, shape or form disrupt the other teams point guard...which means the opposing teams gets to run their offense as they see fit.
Which brings me back to my orginal point from weeks ago - no way Steve Nash was the MVP. He is a very, very good player - but he also hurts his team in some ways. Maybe that isn't critical during the regular season (so maybe he was the regular season MVP after all...not!!), but when things get serious, I promise you NBA GMs would pick at least 3 or 4 other point guards ahead of Nash...
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A Detroit vs. San Antonio final is shaping up to be one of the best in recent memory. I predict a 7 game series as both teams are very deep.
But, then answer me this....
..how can a guy be the MVP (or even his teams MVP) if he puts up fantasy league numbers and his team still loses?
Gregg Popovich is the most underrated coach in the NBA. He is smart - very smart. And he has decided to let Steve Nash do whatever he wants (for 95% of the game anyway). If the Spurs wanted to slow down Steve Nash they could, by putting Bruce Bowden on him (let see how Nash deals with a guy 4 inches taller with long arms and hands and feet that are just as quick...and who doesn't mind using a few dirty tricks) and letting Manu Ginobili guard Shawn Marion and having Parker on Joe Johnson or Quentin Richardson. Marion would eat Ginobili 's lunch, but Parker / Johnson isn't a bad match up at all - Johnson isn't a post up type player, so the height difference doesn't matter, and I'd like to see him feel comfortable shooting that jumper with Parker's ultra quick hands all over him. Johnson can't drive past Parker either - Parker's feet are too quick. Johnson would have to figure out how to score with Parker inside his jersey all night.
Hell, you wouldn't have to even switch the match ups. Parker wouldn't be able to shut down Nash in any event, but even still he has CLEARLY been directed to save his energy for the offensive end of the court. Why? Because Gregg Popovich already knew what we are seeing - that Steve Nash having a great game doesn't necessarily mean the Suns win. Popovich is more interested in stopping Amare Stoudemire and Marion, hence his assignment of Bowden to Marion.
Seems to me that the MVP should be the best player on his team - the one the other teams try to stop.
zydeco said:
..how can a guy be the MVP (or even his teams MVP) if he puts up fantasy league numbers and his team still loses?
Gregg Popovich is the most underrated coach in the NBA. He is smart - very smart. And he has decided to let Steve Nash do whatever he wants (for 95% of the game anyway). If the Spurs wanted to slow down Steve Nash they could, by putting Bruce Bowden on him (let see how Nash deals with a guy 4 inches taller with long arms and hands and feet that are just as quick...and who doesn't mind using a few dirty tricks) and letting Manu Ginobili guard Shawn Marion and having Parker on Joe Johnson or Quentin Richardson. Marion would eat Ginobili 's lunch, but Parker / Johnson isn't a bad match up at all - Johnson isn't a post up type player, so the height difference doesn't matter, and I'd like to see him feel comfortable shooting that jumper with Parker's ultra quick hands all over him. Johnson can't drive past Parker either - Parker's feet are too quick. Johnson would have to figure out how to score with Parker inside his jersey all night.
Hell, you wouldn't have to even switch the match ups. Parker wouldn't be able to shut down Nash in any event, but even still he has CLEARLY been directed to save his energy for the offensive end of the court. Why? Because Gregg Popovich already knew what we are seeing - that Steve Nash having a great game doesn't necessarily mean the Suns win. Popovich is more interested in stopping Amare Stoudemire and Marion, hence his assignment of Bowden to Marion.
Seems to me that the MVP should be the best player on his team - the one the other teams try to stop.
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Didn't watch the game, but that sounds like an interesting adjustment by Van Gundy. I don't like Mourning offensively anymore, but he still has to be better than Haslem. It'll be interesting to see what kind of counter-adjustment Larry Brown comes up with. I still like the Pistons in this series.hammertm said:
MLAM, you make some excellent points, but the guy's name is Bowen, not Bowden.
Don't mean to Slam you MLAM, but you don't seem to understand the concept the Suns employ... It's designed to keep the pace moving.... If you even bother to watch Nash when he plays defence, the guy has all the skills to be a top notch defender... but that is not what is expected from him. They play a switch and rotate defense so that Nash can be near the point. Therefore, he cannot be easily posted up. That "flex" defense protects against the bigger guards posting him up. It also allow him to lead the fast break easier. The idea is for Nash NOT to be a defensive stopperMLAM said:
I agree with you... Babcock, New Jersey's GM, Golden State's GM, LA Clippers GM, Dallas' GM, and a number of other GMs passed on Nash... these teams are doing extremely well...MLAM said:
The trophy is for the League MVP not the best player at any one position. There is no doubt that Nash was league MVP... even most American sports broadcasters who are normally extremely biased towards their countrymen believe that Nash was MVP....
MLAM... the funny thing about your post is that you would have voted for Shaq who I believe is the most dominant player in the game... But these playoffs have proven that Miami can win big games without Shaq
One more thing about Defense... if you look at the games that Dallas won, it was because Erick Dampier totally killed the Suns big guys... even in these two SA games, Duncan, Horry and Bowen have been able to dominate the inside.... How does this really prove that Nash's defense the root of the problem??? Of more concern to me is the fact that Dallas guards and Parker have been able use the pick and roll to drive into the lane for easy layups... believe it or not, this is not Nash's fault!!!!!! This leads me to the conclusion that MLAM does not know much about B-ball...
You are kidding right?
Nash's defensive liabilities have been documented WELL before he got to Phoenix. It has little to do with the system Phoenix uses and everything to do with his (relative) lack of lateral foot speed. I am not saying he doesn't put effort into it ("all the skills to be a top notch defender" indeed), it is that he simply isn't capable. He lacks the strength and foot speed to stop the stronger and quicker guards in the league. The system Phoenix uses is to MASK Nash and his defensive weaknesses, not the other way around.
Note - being able to stop the ball on the pick and roll is the defending guards responsibility - if that guard is able to slip past and / or fight through screens, then the pick and roll can be somewhat negated. Here, let me explain how it works…
The “Pick and Roll” is successful because it creates two mismatches for the offense team. The defending guard is screened off, and as a result the ballhandler is picked up by the defending big man. The ballhandler now either drives pass this (presumably slower) defender or shoots over him (if the defender back up too far to protect against the drive). The ballhandler can also of course pass into his big man rolling to the hoop, who is now being defended by a much smaller man who cannot block his shot and whom can be easily posted up. Lastly, what you might get when the pick and roll is extremely poorly defended is a big man rolling to the hoop unguarded, as the defensive players fail to execute the switch.
Now if Steve Na, err…the defensive guard actually had the strength and / or quickness to fight through / go over that initial screen, no mismatch is created.
The best example of this would be the Bulls / Detroit match-ups of the late 90’s. Initially, Detroit absolutely got fat on pick and rolls between Dumars – Thomas and Bill Laimbeer because the Bulls defenders were intimated (and out muscled) by Laimbeer (It also helped that Laimbeer was a great outside shot, meaning he didn’t even have to waste time rolling to the hoop – Tim Duncan does this a lot currently). However, once Jordan and Pippen begin getting sick of it and muscled up in the off season, what do you know – Detroit couldn’t run pick and rolls nearly as effectively, as those long and quick defenders would fight to stay in the face of the shorter Detroit guards. BTW – this is the same reason why the MASTERS of the Pick and Roll, Stockton and Malone (another very good outside shooting big man) only had moderate success against the Bulls…Pippen and Jordan simply refused to be screened, leaving the shorter Stockton with a very difficult interior pass.
I laugh @ "extremely biased towards their countrymen", as though every Canadian broadcaster hasn't been...I say there is PLENTY of doubt regarding Nash being the MVP - I am not convinced that there aren't a half dozen other players who could have done the same thing in Phoenix if given the same opportunity (the same horses, the same coach, the same offensive philosophy) - hell I'm not convinced Phoenix wouldn't be better with 2 or 3 other players at the point instead of Nash (Gilbert Arenas comes to mind...better defender, better rebounder, nearly as good a shooter...Jason Kidd as well...much better defender and rebounder). Only Shaq could have done what he accomplished in Miami - there is no one else comparable.
Miami hasn't won a big game without Shaq yet - beating Washington is hardly "big game" stuff.
Last point - if Nash were able to adequately guard Tony Parker, do you think those Spurs big men would be doing so well? Or are they bringing the ball up court and running the offense all by themselves? On what planet is this where big men are able to excel without being set up properly by good interior passes? Nash is Tony Parker's bitch, hence Parker does well AND the Spurs big men do well. These things are quite related.
Basketball knowledge indeed...
Hmmm...I was thinking something similar about you..slowandeasy said:
Nash's defensive liabilities have been documented WELL before he got to Phoenix. It has little to do with the system Phoenix uses and everything to do with his (relative) lack of lateral foot speed. I am not saying he doesn't put effort into it ("all the skills to be a top notch defender" indeed), it is that he simply isn't capable. He lacks the strength and foot speed to stop the stronger and quicker guards in the league. The system Phoenix uses is to MASK Nash and his defensive weaknesses, not the other way around.
Note - being able to stop the ball on the pick and roll is the defending guards responsibility - if that guard is able to slip past and / or fight through screens, then the pick and roll can be somewhat negated. Here, let me explain how it works…
The “Pick and Roll” is successful because it creates two mismatches for the offense team. The defending guard is screened off, and as a result the ballhandler is picked up by the defending big man. The ballhandler now either drives pass this (presumably slower) defender or shoots over him (if the defender back up too far to protect against the drive). The ballhandler can also of course pass into his big man rolling to the hoop, who is now being defended by a much smaller man who cannot block his shot and whom can be easily posted up. Lastly, what you might get when the pick and roll is extremely poorly defended is a big man rolling to the hoop unguarded, as the defensive players fail to execute the switch.
Now if Steve Na, err…the defensive guard actually had the strength and / or quickness to fight through / go over that initial screen, no mismatch is created.
The best example of this would be the Bulls / Detroit match-ups of the late 90’s. Initially, Detroit absolutely got fat on pick and rolls between Dumars – Thomas and Bill Laimbeer because the Bulls defenders were intimated (and out muscled) by Laimbeer (It also helped that Laimbeer was a great outside shot, meaning he didn’t even have to waste time rolling to the hoop – Tim Duncan does this a lot currently). However, once Jordan and Pippen begin getting sick of it and muscled up in the off season, what do you know – Detroit couldn’t run pick and rolls nearly as effectively, as those long and quick defenders would fight to stay in the face of the shorter Detroit guards. BTW – this is the same reason why the MASTERS of the Pick and Roll, Stockton and Malone (another very good outside shooting big man) only had moderate success against the Bulls…Pippen and Jordan simply refused to be screened, leaving the shorter Stockton with a very difficult interior pass.
I laugh @ "extremely biased towards their countrymen", as though every Canadian broadcaster hasn't been...I say there is PLENTY of doubt regarding Nash being the MVP - I am not convinced that there aren't a half dozen other players who could have done the same thing in Phoenix if given the same opportunity (the same horses, the same coach, the same offensive philosophy) - hell I'm not convinced Phoenix wouldn't be better with 2 or 3 other players at the point instead of Nash (Gilbert Arenas comes to mind...better defender, better rebounder, nearly as good a shooter...Jason Kidd as well...much better defender and rebounder). Only Shaq could have done what he accomplished in Miami - there is no one else comparable.
Miami hasn't won a big game without Shaq yet - beating Washington is hardly "big game" stuff.
Last point - if Nash were able to adequately guard Tony Parker, do you think those Spurs big men would be doing so well? Or are they bringing the ball up court and running the offense all by themselves? On what planet is this where big men are able to excel without being set up properly by good interior passes? Nash is Tony Parker's bitch, hence Parker does well AND the Spurs big men do well. These things are quite related.
Basketball knowledge indeed...
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Ok MLAM - I get it - You're the 2nd coming of Red Auerbach! You do actually make some good points with respect to the Suns/Spurs match-up - but on this whole overworked Nash MVP thing - what value is there in any of this conjecture regarding what could have been, had other players been involved? This makes no sense to me.
I think MLAM and S&E have both made good points. Yes, it is true that the Suns' defensive scheme is not built around Nash stopping his man, but that doesn't deny the fact that heads up, Nash is not a great defender.
As for the whole MVP thing, I don't know why it still comes up. Nash won, end of story. I also don't understand why the issue of geographical bias keeps on coming up either. He won, didn't he?
As for the whole MVP thing, I don't know why it still comes up. Nash won, end of story. I also don't understand why the issue of geographical bias keeps on coming up either. He won, didn't he?
Appreciate the debate
D'Antonio has stated time and again that he wants to play an uptempo game. Their defense is set up such that Nash is often by the 3-point circle to lead the break.
I did not mean to imply that I think that Nash is an excellent defender by any means...
What you may doubt is that Nash is not the best point guard in the league, or the most talented player in the league etc... We are not debating that point (at least I am not).
Shaq is Invaluable... of that there is no doubt... but was he more valuable to his team than Nash??? Not really...
Again, not implying that Parker does not own Nash, but most of SA's big men points have not been coming because Parker creates them. The last game, Parker has blown by Nash so fast that the help defence was left watching the ball go into the hoop.... and Bill Walton saying something about Amare Stodemire not being an intimidating shot blocker...
BTW.....I was coached by Gary Comak. I man that I believe was/is one of the greatest fundamentals coach in Canada.
No worries, I am not offendedMLAM said:
Defense is a team game... The pick and roll especially is a team play, not one person's responsibility... In it's purest form, the pick is designed to create an opportunity for the ball carrier to drive to the hoop. A properly executed pick cannot be "fought through" easily. Therefore defender not being picked has to step out to stop the penetration of the ball ******* and give the "picked defender" time to get through that screen. This part of the game seems lost on today's coaches. The pick and roll should not cause a mismatch if it's played correctly by BOTH defenders.MLAM said:
D'Antonio has stated time and again that he wants to play an uptempo game. Their defense is set up such that Nash is often by the 3-point circle to lead the break.
I did not mean to imply that I think that Nash is an excellent defender by any means...
I believe that this is where you are wrong. I think that 80% of the league is more talented than Mr. Nash, it's how Nash runs the game that makes him special. The other point is that you may be right that "a half dozen other players" could have done the same thing in Phoenix (that may be stretching it), at this point, that is pure conjecture.MLAM said:
What you may doubt is that Nash is not the best point guard in the league, or the most talented player in the league etc... We are not debating that point (at least I am not).
Shaq is Invaluable... of that there is no doubt... but was he more valuable to his team than Nash??? Not really...
.. May not be big stuff, but Washington is shaping up to be a pretty good team. The last game, Shaq was a non-factor. [/QUOTE]MLAM said:
Recap of last game: Parker passes to Ginobili on the wing. Ginobili take a look at the basket, fakes a shot, and then lobs it into Duncan. Duncan works his way into the key and drops the 10 footer....MLAM said:
Again, not implying that Parker does not own Nash, but most of SA's big men points have not been coming because Parker creates them. The last game, Parker has blown by Nash so fast that the help defence was left watching the ball go into the hoop.... and Bill Walton saying something about Amare Stodemire not being an intimidating shot blocker...
BTW.....I was coached by Gary Comak. I man that I believe was/is one of the greatest fundamentals coach in Canada.
Erick Dampier
MLAM, just one thing on your point about Phoenix that you did not really address... Dallas might have won the series had Dampier been able to stay out of foul trouble. It was ridiculous how easy this guy was scoring and rebounding in that series.
Now Erick D is not Tim Duncan yet he was able to rip the Phoenix big guys at will.
The fact of the matter is that if you believe that Nash's defense sucks Amare Stodemire defensive out of this world bad!!!..
MLAM, just one thing on your point about Phoenix that you did not really address... Dallas might have won the series had Dampier been able to stay out of foul trouble. It was ridiculous how easy this guy was scoring and rebounding in that series.
Now Erick D is not Tim Duncan yet he was able to rip the Phoenix big guys at will.
The fact of the matter is that if you believe that Nash's defense sucks Amare Stodemire defensive out of this world bad!!!..
Joe Johnson will be guarding Parker when he gets back. Tony Parker can have really crappy games when he gets demoralized by missing his first couple of shots. He gets hot and cold easily, and slacks off on the defensive end when he doesn't do well offensively.
