My opinionated opinion of the garbage strike

[Yoga Face]

I do not know whether this thread will fly but here goes


I question all I read, but if these statistics I read are true then

- less than 20 % of the population owns over 80 % of the wealth and it is getting worse as the rich are now buying everything up at fire sale prices

- 1% of households consume 25% of household goods

It is Unions that are slowing down, but not stopping, the rich from getting richer and the poor from getting poorer

This laissez-faire/allow capitalism freedom to rule and break up all the unions crap does not work. Look at countries without them and our own before unions. Who would like to work in a coal mine during the twenties? or been a laborer building a national railway (that still makes no financial sense and never has) or have died of malaria while digging out the Rideau canal while living in abject poverty so the British money changers could keep out the American money changers ?

You complain about the 18 sick days the garbage men get ???

Don't you get it - everyone should have 18 sick days! The unions are in the lead to raise the standards of the working man!

Where should this money come from???? Clearly from the investment portfolios of the money changers who own 80 percent of the wealth and have caused this recession with their greed and impoverish third world countries by supporting dictators that will allow exploitation of their people so they can get filthy rich. The oil monopolies are the clearest example of this outrages and inhumane behavior


How come everyone is so brainwashed and blinded to this obvious truth?

So I have vented, could it be I am wrong?

If I am how so?

Educate me

 

[JohnLarue]

They tried your little experiment in Russia for 70 years.
Word is it did not work out so well

Wake up. The only way society moves forward is if there is incentive for individuals to improve their standard of living.
This is accomplished by hard work, starting a business, investing money or taking risks.

Take away that incentive by redistributing the wealth as you describe & there is no move forward in technology, innovation, productivity, health and standard of living.

BTW I have accumulated some of the wealth the so called money changers are managing.
Its a small amount, however I worked hard to accumulate it.
My message to you is
HANDS OFF & I suggest you accumulate some of your own

 

[addicted2whiskey]

Re: Right on!

They tried your little experiment in Russia for 70 years.
Word is it did not work out so well

Wake up. The only way society moves forward is if there is incentive for individuals to improve their standard of living.
This is accomplished by hard work, starting a business, investing money or taking risks.

Take away that incentive by redistributing the wealth as you describe & there is no move forward in technology, innovation, productivity, health and standard of living.

BTW I have accumulated some of the wealth the so called money changers are managing.
Its a small amount, however I worked hard to accumulate it.
My message to you is
HANDS OFF & I suggest you accumulate some of your own

John LaRue. You my friend are 100% correct. That's why we North Americans are losing the battle to our counterparts in Asia. Prosperity is earned and should not be bestowed upon people. We as a people have become complacent and lost perspective. Sad but true.

 

[blackrock13]

I'll say maybe 50/50. But just join the 2 existing threads on this topic.

We are not a laissez-faire country. That why we are considered on the world scene as a socialized democracy. We do in large degree help and support those in need.

That you don't believe everything you read is a good thing, but getting to be a rare stance in today's society.

No, everyone should not get 18 'bankable' sick days as discussed ad noseum in the other threads. If your sick your sick but bring a note. Sick day are for those who are sick not to be used later as early retirement cookies.

your other points are also worth talk, but join us else where.

 

[calloway]

Yoga... would it be fair to say you that belong to a union?

Are you a unionized employee, shop steward or paid union management?

 

[gramage]

I think a key distinction your missing is that this is a public sector union. In the private sector where the profits you mentioned are made if a union goes on strike it hurts the company by providing revenue and does little damage to the public who can go to another company. When a public sector union goes on strike the government is saving money and the public is screwed because they don't have alternatives other then move away. No public sector union should ever strike, because all it does is make people want their jobs privatized. I think the city should sign any one year contract they want and start privatizing trash pick up immediately. If public servants can not be trusted to keep the public trust then hand their industry over to the private sector.

 

[a 1 player]

A very short reply, and with not much detail...

- less than 20 % of the population owns over 80 % of the wealth and it is getting worse as the rich are now buying everything up at fire sale prices

Most of the money that they own is tied up in things that are not liquid, such as factories, machinery, and real estate. All of which employs other people. The reason that they are getting more wealthy is that they are getting a return on their investment, the same way you and I are. The 'rich' is not an entity, it is a group of individuals no different than you or I who have made some wise business choices, and who have worked hard and saved well.

- 1% of households consume 25% of household goods

If you can, please back this up. It might be true, but that would mean that 1% would all have several cars, washing machines, televisions, ect. If 1% owned 25%, it would mean that they should own 25 of each household good. I can't see this.

It is Unions that are slowing down, but not stopping, the rich from getting richer and the poor from getting poorer

And that is just plain evil. How dare anyone tell anyone else what they have the right to earn, or that they have to share their wealth with someone who did not earn it.

This laissez-faire/allow capitalism freedom to rule and break up all the unions crap does not work. Look at countries without them and our own before unions. Who would like to work in a coal mine during the twenties? or been a laborer building a national railway (that still makes no financial sense and never has) or have died of malaria while digging out the Rideau canal while living in abject poverty so the British money changers could keep out the American money changers ?

At that time, it was probably the only source of income available to them. If the choice is work or starve, people tend to choose to work. People in Canada have always had the choice to work for someone else, or become selfemployed. This was probably their best option at the time.

You complain about the 18 sick days the garbage men get ???

Yes I do. It is MY money that is paying for those 18 sick days.

Don't you get it - everyone should have 18 sick days! The unions are in the lead to raise the standards of the working man!

At whose expense?

Where should this money come from???? Clearly from the investment portfolios of the money changers who own 80 percent of the wealth and have caused this recession with their greed and impoverish third world countries by supporting dictators that will allow exploitation of their people so they can get filthy rich. The oil monopolies are the clearest example of this outrages and inhumane behavior

This is just nonsense on so many levels. Money is exchanged for productive labor, and grown by investing in things that will produce a return on ones investment. As for the oil companies... Most are publicly owned, people choose to invest in them because they do give a good return. To most people, the returns they gain outweigh the exploitation they do, (if one can call providing jobs exploitation). If you don't like how they operate, don't invest in them. Many of the third world countries have not even gone through an industrial revolution yet.

How come everyone is so brainwashed and blinded to this obvious truth?

The truth is out there, but it is dependent upon the way you see it, and what your philosophies are. A capitalist sees the truth different than a socialist. You have shown which you are.

So I have vented, could it be I am wrong?

In Cuba or the USSR you would be 100% right.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Blackrock you are getting squishy now, we are a mainly capitalist moderate social-democracy. Most countries in Europe have much more advanced social programs than we do but we will catch up. Recent day care kindergarten steps by McGuinty are a marvelous step in the right direction. The very best countries in the world balance their social democracy with a predominately private economy. The private sector though just cannot be trusted with health, education and the environment which is where the state must step in.

 

[Yoga Face]

They tried your little experiment in Russia for 70 years.
Word is it did not work out so well

Wake up. The only way society moves forward is if there is incentive for individuals to improve their standard of living.
This is accomplished by hard work, starting a business, investing money or taking risks.

Take away that incentive by redistributing the wealth as you describe & there is no move forward in technology, innovation, productivity, health and standard of living.

BTW I have accumulated some of the wealth the so called money changers are managing.
Its a small amount, however I worked hard to accumulate it.
My message to you is
HANDS OFF & I suggest you accumulate some of your own

Allow me to retort.

No, I am not talking about Russia and while Marxism has worked in parts of the world where the masses revolted from effete economic arguments that kept them from growing food to feed themselves with, I am not talking Marxism either.

I am not talking about people who work hard and make good money by starting their own business but about the 20% who own 80% of the wealth and I presume you are not one

These people are money changers who are the richest amongst us and do nothing but exchange money while causing recessions then argue that such unfettered flow of money is vital to capitalism and I say nonsense. Other economic theories abound but the rich get to install the theory that keeps them filthy rich

I refute the belief that taking social wealth back from the money changers will stifle incentive

The idea that you allow wealth to accumulate more wealth in an eternal cycle of the rich getting richer is not the force that inspires hard work, innovation and creativity.

While I believe both of our philosophies are flawed the question is which one is flawed less so I repeat that you consider working conditions for the common man and the overall social wealth produced by society before and after unions


BTW I am not in a union and I am only putting forth ideas here. I could be wrong ( but so could you) and thx for the feedback

let us not get into a pissing contest

 

[cc12rye]

I don't know if unions are the answer but there is a huge imbalance in the world.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e23c6d04-659d-11de-8e34-00144feabdc0.html

For those that think they have accumulated a bit of wealth and support hands off, be careful what you ask for. I have been in the group that has been benefiting but I also think we can't keep widening the wealth gap. One day there might just be a handful of kings and 99.999% of us are slaving away just to maintain current lifestyles.

From http://www.henryckliu.com/page190.html

That has been the basic problem of the global economy for the past three decades. Low wages even in boom times have landed the world in its current sorry state of overcapacity masked by unsustainable demand created by a debt bubble that finally imploded in July 2007. The whole world is now producing goods and services made by low-wage workers who cannot afford to buy what they make except by taking on debt on which they eventually will default because their low income cannot service it. All the stimulus spending by all governments perpetuates this dysfunctionality. There will be no recovery from this dysfunctional financial system. Only reform toward full empolyment with rising wages will save this severely impaired economy.
​

 

[a 1 player]

For those that think they have accumulated a bit of wealth and support hands off, be careful what you ask for. I have been in the group that has been benefiting but I also think we can't keep widening the wealth gap. One day there might just be a handful of kings and 99.999% of us are slaving away just to maintain current lifestyles.

And there will be a dark ages, and there will be a revolt, and there will be a Renaissance. And history will repeat itself.

 

[Rockslinger]

Don't you get it - everyone should have 18 sick days!

Why stop at 18? Shouldn't everybody be entitled to 365 sick days a year and 366 days in a leap year?

 

[Rockslinger]

When people complain about the rich, I always like to talk about my boss "The Big Guy" and his brother, my very best friend, "Crazy Bull". They were born to a family of modest means (read dirt poor) in Parkdale. Using their intelligence and hockey skills, they each won hockey scholarships to an American Ivy League college. They worked 24/7 to build their business from scratch and, yes, they are rich and they earned every cent of it. In the process, they made a lot of other people rich as well.

 

[Mrbig1949]

This sick days thing is a laugh, these days have been in these contracts for decades nenewed over and over by management. I'm sure they don't even intend to roll them back in this round, just a bargaining position to start the union in a hole and make it work to get back to even + 3%. BTW, I cashed in my sick days for a cool $80 000. Niiiiice.

 

[JohnLarue]

Allow me to retort.

No, I am not talking about Russia and while Marxism has worked in parts of the world where the masses revolted from effete economic arguments that kept them from growing food to feed themselves with, I am not talking Marxism either.

I am not talking about people who work hard and make good money by starting their own business but about the 20% who own 80% of the wealth and I presume you are not one

These people are money changers who are the richest amongst us and do nothing but exchange money while causing recessions then argue that such unfettered flow of money is vital to capitalism and I say nonsense. Other economic theories abound but the rich get to install the theory that keeps them filthy rich

I refute the belief that taking social wealth back from the money changers will stifle incentive

The idea that you allow wealth to accumulate more wealth in an eternal cycle of the rich getting richer is not the force that inspires hard work, innovation and creativity.

While I believe both of our philosophies are flawed the question is which one is flawed less so I repeat that you consider working conditions for the common man and the overall social wealth produced by society before and after unions


BTW I am not in a union and I am only putting forth ideas here. I could be wrong ( but so could you) and thx for the feedback

let us not get into a pissing contest

Fine no pissing contest.
I just hope you understand that the 20% who own the 80% of the wealth are probably responsible for 90% of the investment in new equipment and businesses
I do not know where you work, but chances are these people have made an investment that allows you to work.

Start taxing them to equal things out & you may not have a job, because they will stop investing.
Your next obvious point is that investment money will come from the net receivers in your wealth redistribution plan,
Guess again. That group has a different level of risk tolerances & will spend the new found money on consumption items (boozze, smokes, vacations & a newer car) rather than investing in businesses to create jobs.

BTW the 20% who own 80% started by investing in businesses (or their families great grandfather did), so yes you are talikng about the same people & they are the drivers of economic growth.
Who do you think is invsting in IPOs. The Canada Pension Plan???, not likely that is way to risky for more than a small % of ther assets

Your ideals may sound nice, but implementing them will fuck things up so badly. >>>> Worse than you can ever imagine

Take some basic economic & finance courses, then if you still want to change the world, try it with the understanding of what motivates people

 

[blackrock13]

Blackrock you are getting squishy now, we are a mainly capitalist moderate social-democracy. Most countries in Europe have much more advanced social programs than we do but we will catch up. Recent day care kindergarten steps by McGuinty are a marvelous step in the right direction. The very best countries in the world balance their social democracy with a predominately private economy. The private sector though just cannot be trusted with health, education and the environment which is where the state must step in.

Please define squishy. Then I'll know whether to buss you or throw something.

Your past posts put what you say here in question. I don't care if it's 50/50, 45/55 or 40/60, we're a socialist democracy. The fact that we have the ability to make some private capital makes it even better. Even Russia, China and finally Cuba have realized that private capital is not an evil thing. We are certainly more capitalistic than those three and may have a better balance. That gives us excellent rankings in most studies of quality of life over and over.

 

[blackrock13]

This sick days thing is a laugh, these days have been in these contracts for decades nenewed over and over by management. I'm sure they don't even intend to roll them back in this round, just a bargaining position to start the union in a hole and make it work to get back to even + 3%. BTW, I cashed in my sick days for a cool $80 000. Niiiiice.

The only two that are laughing in this thread are you and OJ.

$80 grand and you laugh. I think you just made a lot of fence-sitters in this thread make up their mind against your position. In other words, I got mine and you can't touch it. $80,000 will certainly buy a lot dog fucks. Was it tax free?

Have a nice life.

 

[addicted2whiskey]

When people complain about the rich, I always like to talk about my boss "The Big Guy" and his brother, my very best friend, "Crazy Bull". They were born to a family of modest means (read dirt poor) in Parkdale. Using their intelligence and hockey skills, they each won hockey scholarships to an American Ivy League college. They worked 24/7 to build their business from scratch and, yes, they are rich and they earned every cent of it. In the process, they made a lot of other people rich as well.

Who are these guys? Sounds like an amazing story!

 

[hoser1970]

consider working conditions for the common man and the overall social wealth produced by society before and after unions

I don't think anyone would argue with the role unions played in the late 19th & early 20th centuries, during the Industrial Revolution! Their contributions are well documented: improved working conditions, fair wages, protection against unfair/unsafe work practices & maximum # of hours worked/week, just to name a few. Clearly then, they served a real purpose to all of society.

I (and clearly many others) do not believe what the Union is asking for in the current work stoppage falls into any of these categories! Consider their current benefits:

• 18 sick days PER YEAR (and the right to carry them forward?)

• Up to 6 weeks PAID vacation per year

• A GUARANTEE that no job losses will result from contracting out work

I can somewhat understand the 18 sick days per year, since they have no short term disability plan. I could also support the premise that they need to carry these days forward, also in the event they incur serious illness that causes them to miss a significant period of time. However, usage of any days carried forward should be limited only to such a medical situation. Banking sick days in order to get up to 6 months paid leave prior to retirement should be rescinded!

These people are money changers who are the richest amongst us and do nothing but exchange money while causing recessions then argue that such unfettered flow of money is vital to capitalism and I say nonsense. Other economic theories abound but the rich get to install the theory that keeps them filthy rich

Who are these "moneychangers" you keep referring to? Investment bankers? Private equity lenders? Then wouldn't some of the biggest be:

1) Teachers Pension Fund
2) OMERS
3) Canada Pension Plan Investment Board

I agree, lets take money from Teachers Pension Fund and OMERs to improve overall societal wealth!

 

[Rockslinger]

Who are these guys? Sounds like an amazing story!

They like to keep a low profile so I cannot divulge their identity but "rags to riches" stories are not uncommon in Canada and the U.S. Here are five more.

1) East Indian immigrant got "off the boat" about 20 years ago and started to renovate rundown hotels. He is now a multi-millionaire. The Comfort Suite near Filmores is one of his properties.

2) Ted Rogers (RIP) inherited a modest fortune and built the Rogers Communications empire.

3) Two young men built RIM and made more Canadian millionaires than mighty Canadian Pacific or Royal Bank.

4) Young man from Hamilton founded a company call Red Hat. His aunt invested $5,000 which was then worth $40million when Red Hat did their IPO. The aunt donated $20million to McMaster University.

5) Young man immigrated to Canada from Jamaica and founded the AIC mutual fund empire and is now a billionaire and major contributor to the arts community.

These people are the creators, the innovators and the risk takers who make Canada great and rich. These folks contribute much to our arts, academic and medical communities and our society in general.