You know what, this is starting to make sense cause when I was in school, the professor talked about the history of Upper Canada and we talked briefly about education and the church here. He noted that U of T used to be extremely elitist and had an "Anglos only" policy in their admissions all the way up till the mid 1960's. Of course, there were non Anglos, but few and they were probably admitted due to public trends and pressures. I guess there aren't much non-Anglos at Trinity even till this day. It would be interesting to look at the pictures of the graduating classes of Trinity and see the ethnic diversity there and if their family are (Anglican) church related.red said:
Most difficult university major?
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As it turns out, scientists use a little more rigour than saying "who wants to take an IQ test?". Scientists can use the scientific method to test and prove conclusions, such as that IQ is the best predictor of success in a variety of non-mathematical areas.solitaria said:
But that does not not prevent anyone from saying that they do not accept the scientific method, that they are free and creative and that math geeks are losers. The world of reason is not the only world one can inhabit.
Very well said.solitaria said:
I'd also add, as someone who wrote both the GMAT and the LSAT (and no, not for kicks!
), that attempting to use them as some sort of general indicator of intelligence is foolish in the extreme. For starters, it's widely acknowledged that these tests are "North Americanized", making comparisons to other cultures fruitless to say the least. Anyone who wants to do well on the GMAT and the LSAT can do so given enough time and access to the necessary resources (i.e. Princeton Review courses). You can literally train yourself to get yourself into the mindset of the test makers so that you know how they ask the questions and what type of answers they are looking for. To me that's not intelligence, it's memorization and repetition.It should also be noted that neither the GMAT nor the LSAT has an extensive essay question, further tilting the "bias" of the test more towards the short and specific answers of "science" vs. the broad and (often) ambivalent answers of the arts.
Solitaria;solitaria said:
I couldn't agree with you any more! There are multiple intelligences, according to Hugh Gardner, and the standard IQ test only measures the 'mathematical/logical' component of the overall intelligence of a person. Psychology teaches us to appreciate all classes of intelligence.
By the way, did you notice that math geeks usually are good at music? There is some connection between math and music. For your own interest, I have a Ph.D. in one of the 'hard' sciences. Ikeep asking myself, where did I go wrong?
Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
shakenbake with Italian spices.....
I think it was starting to change in the sixties, actually. There was a tremendous influx of immigrants in the sixties, and Good Old Jonny Lombardi had started his multicultural radio station in that decade, if memory serves me correctly. Being the son of an immigrant Italian family, and born Canadian, I heard horror stories about what immigrants had to put up with in the fifties. Ah well, we are one multicultural centre now, and thank goodness for that. We are enriched by our diversity!red said:
shakenbake with Italian spices.....
It's always going to be a matter of personal opinion, of course. But some say qualifying as a patent agent is the most difficult. First, you get a degree in engineering or physics. Second, you get a law degree. So you're talking about people who usually do very well in exams. Now, you take the patent exam -- but the pass rate for the patent exams is only one in three.
Good luck!
Good luck!
This multicultural policy by the government is just a veil to cover our eyes. Canada is still a very Judal-Christian, Anglo dominated society. Nothing has really changed. What has changed is the tolerance level of the dominant ruling class of Anglos who still run the show. Immigration policy here is still very discriminative based on the abilties or skills or capital for those coming in thanks to the point system. So, Canada is not being "racist" but "classist" ... only those who can contribute to Canada can get in. In this respect, I am in total agreement with the government. Yet, when immigrants get here, they don't really have a chance to become the ruling class or participate in the policy making process as this still remains in the hands of the Anglos.shakenbake said:I think it was starting to change in the sixties, actually. There was a tremendous influx of immigrants in the sixties, and Good Old Jonny Lombardi had started his multicultural radio station in that decade, if memory serves me correctly. Being the son of an immigrant Italian family, and born Canadian, I heard horror stories about what immigrants had to put up with in the fifties. Ah well, we are one multicultural centre now, and thank goodness for that. We are enriched by our diversity!
shakenbake with Italian spices.....
On a side note, the Liberals have been the dominant players playing the race card carefully as they know that by "putting on a show" they have secured the immigrant non-Anglo vote for eternity (as long as the Liberals exists). Yet, it is these same Liberals who were the most racist who had a "Gentlemen's Treaty" with Japan to restrict immigration and it is these same Liberals who confiscated Japanese property and transplanted them to the interior lands during the war.
So, as you see, who still runs the show? And, no matter how gifted and non-Anglo is, he won't reach the pinnacle of his field simply because he he restricted by his skin color or ethnicity. Go to Mount Sinai, you see all the talented young Chinese doctors', yet, who sits on the boards of hospitals at the university health network?
At the same time, a company like ATI who has a Chinese CEO hires lots and lots of Orientals and South Asians. In this way, ATI is also being "racist" too leaning towards an "Asians only" policy. I mean yeah, there are some Anglos at ATI, but the Asians out number them like 4:1 ...
Immigrants will always remain in their ghettos and for those who do complete
an university education and get a career, well, they will always be paid less then an Anglo Canadian and he will never reach the executive level.
I vote for math, more specifically pure and applied math. The reason? Simple, it's not easily visualized. With all of the above fields its something that's very tangible (always exceptions, quantum mechanics, classical mechanics etc etc) and I think that makes it infinatly easier to visualize. With pure math it's compleatly differnent, the theorms that upper level mathematicians are dealing with are much more abstract requiring more mental muscle to plow through.
I think the gist of what Im trying to say is that with pure math, the theorms and proofs aren't something that you'd use in everyday life or the applications aren't evident in everyday life. It's the intangibility that makes it difficult.
Currently the most difficult undergrad program is Systems Design (U Waterloo) engineering, lowest mark admitted in 2004 was a 96%. Being an engineer sucks, you do the most work and get paid the least.
I think the gist of what Im trying to say is that with pure math, the theorms and proofs aren't something that you'd use in everyday life or the applications aren't evident in everyday life. It's the intangibility that makes it difficult.
Currently the most difficult undergrad program is Systems Design (U Waterloo) engineering, lowest mark admitted in 2004 was a 96%. Being an engineer sucks, you do the most work and get paid the least.
APOLOGIES FOR LONG POST, I HOPE THIS WILL HELP YOU UNDERSTAND ASIANS AND THE ETHNIC VIEW ON RACISM BETTER!!!DateMasamune said:
The folly of your statement is that you're implying that white man is purposely holding the ethnicities down, which is correct to a point.
If you take the the example of the hosipital board of directors I would ask you survey them and find the average as well as the median age of those directors. I think that you wouldn't be surprised to find that they're almost all well into late 40's or 50's. Now when you trace that back that means that they must of entered med school in the late 70's or at latest early 80's. Now also think about the immegrant population and when did they start to come to canada. The point I am trying to make here is that it's not a conscious act of the white population to hold onto power but that the majority of asians who hold med school degrees are reletively young and thus wouldn't have the seniority to reach positions of power. Give it another 20 years and I think there will be change, but then the public would view that as a loosening of racial stereotypes when in reality it's timing.
Another issue i'd like to address is your comment on ATI's hiring policy. While it is true many of the programmers are asian I dont think it's fair to say that its because the CEO and upper management team is asian. You see to understand why there are so many Asian Code Monkeys you have to understand where these guys come from. Many come abroad, Hong Kong and China specifically and you have to understand the mentality of the average chinese family. Confucianism places a heavy influence on education and many tradition Chinese families adhere heavily to the ancient teachings of Confucious. When young chinese emmigrate to Canada they have trouble learning english and as a result suffer in standardized testing. Math however is universal, as a result they excel. The common misconception is that chinese have excellent math skills and they have poor written skills, hence the huge amount of chinese accountants, mathies and code monkeys. Saying that ATI only hires asians is incorrect in that ATI ONLY hires the best computer programmers. And as CS is a field that is heavily dependant on logic and math, skills which chinese are able to retain; you see that there are more chinese people.
As a chinese person I find that I encounter very little resistance in so far as advancement comes as most companies merit achievment over skin colour. It'd be stupid to withhold a person an advancement just because of their skin colour, remember that corporate entities are only interested in making money! As for racism as a whole? I think blacks just need to get their act together as a whole, parent's need to take responsibility for their children and making sure that they get education that will lift them from the ghetto. Not taking into account outrageously rich black rappers or atheletes, the truely successful black people have achieved their success through education, ie: Condelezza Rice. I mean I understand I am oversimplifying a immensely complex problem but I truely believe that blacks have to place a focus on education and stick to it. I read in Time magazine that in many US counties only 10% of black students graduate high school. In north america getting a undergraduates degree is benchmark, how would expect to make wihtout a GED? The Chinese in canada started much in the same way as the blacks so I empathize for their situation but at some degree the black community has to take responsibility for their youth. Role models are parents not rappers or basketball players who've argueably done nothing to deserve their multimillion dollar contracts. Give individuals of each race time to mature and I think you'll definatly see more "coloured" people in power in North America
Just a few weeks ago a Canadian study was published that concluded that non-whites with a university degree earn about 50% of what a white person with a university degree does. Coupled with the statistic that people with grade school education earn half of what university grads do, this brings up some interesting insights.
Nonwhites qualifications are discounted or ignored.
Nonwhites have to be overqualified to get the same oppourtunities as whites.
Nonwhites are restricted in career advancement.
The criteria for career advancement is color.
Welcome to the North American Corporate Ethos.
Thats why so many nonwhites start their own businesses.
p.s. anybody have links to that study?
Nonwhites qualifications are discounted or ignored.
Nonwhites have to be overqualified to get the same oppourtunities as whites.
Nonwhites are restricted in career advancement.
The criteria for career advancement is color.
Welcome to the North American Corporate Ethos.
Thats why so many nonwhites start their own businesses.
p.s. anybody have links to that study?
I haven't read most of the replies here but did note that a plug was put in for chemical engineering. I am retired but have degrees in both Chem Eng and chemistry. Whoopee!! Overall I was an average student and always thought one had to be pretty smart to get these degrees even though I realize I have a lot of failings in many other areas. But if those of us who went this way were so smart, how come we let ourselves, in general of course, be kicked around by the system. If you could/would play the "game" you did better. I was one of the lucky ones, and I do mean lucky. I was able to go my entire career working in technical positions, though usually at low pay that did not reflect the difficulty of the academic achievment. Many, with better grades than I, fell by the wayside or couldn't even get a technical job. Those in other professions, Teachers, for example, found a way to buck the system through organization and collective bargaining. The chemist/Chem Eng was pretty much on his own. And by the way, don't go by those salary surveys you might come across. They're way overinflated and sponsored by the industrial/academic power block that has an interest in filling University enrollment in these fields so they can then pick and choose from a "corral" of graduates.
Good perspective on the ways of the Corporate world right now. While this is the way things played out for you in Chem Eng, the same thing is happening to most other fields listed above in that survey with the advent of widespread "Offshoring." Corporations are rushing to hire those in the above fields but in offshore countries where those hired receive salaries 1/5 - 1/10 of what they would pay someone in N America. This is a bad trend that only shows signs of getting worse. Government intervention is the only thing that can stop this but don't look for that to happen since for the most part Corporations are pretty much setting the agenda and call all the shots here.funguy07 said:
100% bullshit.DateMasamune said:
Boy those Irish ghettos in Toronto sure are an eye sore. Same with the Italian ghettos. Boy, those people sure never amounted to much.
The truth of the matter is that every "wave" of new immigrants must earn their way up the social ladder. Yet every new wave thinks they've got it worse than everyone else and they have some kind of monopoly on sympathy and discrimination. You don't come in and start off on a level playing field with all the other cultures that have been established here for decades/centuries. But in time, and with hard work, each new wave of immigrants works their way up the social ladder and reaches a higher level of social acceptance and prestige. The Irish and Italians started out at the bottom. Not look at them; they've worked their way up and play dominant roles in society and politics (Woodbridge/Vaugn anyone?).
I'll tell you this much. If I'm in charge of hiring and an immigrant comes in complaining how they're constantly being discriminated against by the white man, and another immigrant comes in who is willing to put their head down and work hard, I know who I'm going to be hiring. Bitching and complaining gets you nowhere; that's why black ghettos continue to exist in Toronto.
To tie back in to university degrees, every wave of new immigrants should be aiming to have its children get a university education. It's the obvious and necessary way to increase your education, earning potential, and status in society. That first wave may (and probably will) suffer discrimination as well as poverty, but that's the way the game is played folks. You have to struggle more so that your children will have to struggle less. And when you've been doing that for several hundred years, it's pretty obvious that those ethnic groups will have a higher social standing than those who are "fresh off the boat".
And, to be perfectly honest, if I emigrated to India or China or wherever, I would fully expect to be a lot farther down the social ladder. For me to think that I should be on the same social level as people who have lived in that country for centuries would be extremely naive on my part. Yes, in a perfect world blah blah blah. But we don't live in a perfect world and that's the way the cookie crumbles (says I, the maker of delicious cookie treats!).
Took Cultural Studies 331 in my last year to get an "easy" credit. Boy, was I wrong. Not that it was hard but intensely boring. I feel asleep often. The prof was a militant lesbian who hated us "frat" boys as she put it. She spent over 50% of the time in class with discussions about homosexuality in the 20th C. I started skipping and eventually dropped it midterm. Hell.
The study, as I recall, was based on colour not immigration status.Keebler Elf said:
Your interpretation is that all nonwhites are immigrants, ergo: all whites are nonimmigrants, and therefore, Canadian.
Last year during the Molson Indy telecast, Bob Varsha quoted the now familiar government statistic that Toronto is over 50% nonwhite. He went on to say something to the effect that he hopes everyone is enjoying the race since most of you were not born here. The same misconception.
