Mass Shooting in Vegas

[FAST]

Sure there is. Pro-gun supporters need high capacity mags because there's always that threat the US government will order their troops to take over everyone's home. So they need 20 rifles, a flamethrower and grenades to defend against the group of Navy Seals coming after their motor home.

I think the not so bright here missed the point of your post.

Best not to be assuming everybody here is more intelligent than a 12 year old.

Drop it down a level or two,... and everybody here should get your points,... but not guaranteed,... after reading some of the responses.

 

[FAST]

Guns are part of many cultures, not just the U.S., although none seem to have the massive problems of the U.S. There's even a large gun culture in Canada. Canada is still mostly rural, and in some parts of Canada, there is still a gun in every household. Tens of millions of guns in Canada as a matter of fact. Most of these anti gun people live in big cities.

,... "Most of these anti gun people live in big cities',... which is were all of the murders are committed,... so understandable,... isn't it.

And yes, I had a long gun when I lived on a farm,... long gone now.

 

[poorboy]

,... "Most of these anti gun people live in big cities',... which is were all of the murders are committed,... so understandable,... isn't it.

And yes, I had a long gun when I lived on a farm,... long gone now.

Where did you get this statistic?

Because according to the Government of Canada, the areas with the most violent gun crimes per 100,000 population are Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, followed by Saskatchewan and Manitoba. You may be of the OPINION all of the murders are committed in big cities, but the FACTS are otherwise.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2014001/article/11925-eng.htm#a8

I can tell you this as well after being in Saskatchewan and Nunavut. No one there wants more gun control. Those people, who you may call "simple" know that a firearm is a tool, and it was the person that committed the crime that was dangerous.

 

[SchlongConery]

Guns are part of many cultures, not just the U.S., although none seem to have the massive problems of the U.S. There's even a large gun culture in Canada. Canada is still mostly rural, and in some parts of Canada, there is a gun in every household. Most of these anti gun people live in big cities.

I agree. Guns are a part of many civilized societies. Including Canada. But the US is different because they wrap their love of guns under the flag of keeping the Gub'mint in check. And keepin' their families and homes safe from *iggers and "Muzzies". I watch some of these guys with their YouTube Gun Porn channels and they are just salivating at the chance of blasting some guy who breaks into their home, car or threatens them. I get the feeling that they would rather have a gun fight than anything else. My training and the advice of Navy Seals to those in non-combat roles in the case of a threat is to 1. RUN, 2. HIDE and only then if those two are no longer possible, then 3. fight. And then RUN!

US gun culture is different than just about anywhere else. Including Canada. It is the law in Canada that you may not possess a firearm for the stated purpose of self defence against another human. Having said that...I held a rare Restricted carry PAL for purposes of self-defence. From bears! Seriously. I was flying a lot in the north and bears were a valid reason to be issued this carry permit and the CFO was happy to issue it to me. I really didn't think I needed to carry as I carried an 870 in the plane. But one time I was unloading the plane and we were going back and forth to the dock and the cabin and on the return walk I came face to face with a HUGE black bear. Right on the path as I turned the corner on the trail! I stopped, averted my eyes and slowly walked backwards toward the cabin. My gun was in the plane and my friends were down at the dock. I feared for their safety and didn't know what to do. Fortunately, they came back up the trail without seeing the bear. One of my friends was an intelligence copper and back in those days he carried his Glock all the time. He was the guy who told me that I could apply for a restricted carry permit as a pilot who flew in the north. So I bought a lightweight Taurus 357 Magnum with a 5" barrel. Never used it except to sight it in. Was not fun to shoot.

 

[Occasionally]

Guns are part of many cultures, not just the U.S., although none seem to have the massive problems of the U.S. There's even a large gun culture in Canada. Canada is still mostly rural, and in some parts of Canada, there is still a gun in every household. Tens of millions of guns in Canada as a matter of fact. Most of these anti gun people live in big cities.

And that's the problem. Just about every other country with a decent amount of guns per capita does fine and doesn't have monthly killing sprees. The only countries that have lousy murder/gun violence come from countries with civil war or those drug infested countries.

You also said the US people want guns.

So what you have is a population that loves guns, gun manufacturers lobbying, and lots of killings.

So it shows the US can't handle widespread gun ownership. That's why it should be curtailed.

Switzerland has/used to have these mandatory gun ownership laws where all men had to do army training. They all got government issued military grade guns and a box of bullets.

In my books, the Swiss can have them. Heck, give each of them a bazooka. That's because despite a ton of people with a high powered gun in their home with free bullets, nobody goes around killing people. So it shows that populace has control.

The US does not.

 

[poorboy]

And that's the problem. Just about every other country with a decent amount of guns per capita does fine and doesn't have monthly killing sprees. The only countries that have lousy murder/gun violence come from countries with civil war or those drug infested countries.

You also said the US people want guns.

So what you have is a population that loves guns, gun manufacturers lobbying, and lots of killings.

So it shows the US can't handle widespread gun ownership. That's why it should be curtailed.

Switzerland has/used to have these mandatory gun ownership laws where all men had to do army training. They all got government issued military grade guns and a box of bullets.

In my books, the Swiss can have them. Heck, give each of them a bazooka. That's because despite a ton of people with a high powered gun in their home with free bullets, nobody goes around killing people. So it shows that populace has control.

The US does not.

As has happened many times over in the U.S., any time additional gun control is proposed, gun sales and prices skyrocket. As I've stated previously, Obama's efforts to introduce gun legislation drove gun sales to record breaking levels. Any efforts to introduce strict legislation will backfire, and the way that Americans are, a civil war could be a real prospect if pushed through.

 

[Occasionally]

As has happened many times over in the U.S., any time additional gun control is proposed, gun sales and prices skyrocket. As I've stated previously, Obama's efforts to introduce gun legislation drove gun sales to record breaking levels. Any efforts to introduce strict legislation will backfire, and the way that Americans are, a civil war could be a real prospect if pushed through.

So in other words, don't do anything.

Just the response I'd expect from a pro-gun advocate.

 

[SchlongConery]

As has happened many times over in the U.S., any time additional gun control is proposed, gun sales and prices skyrocket. As I've stated previously, Obama's efforts to introduce gun legislation drove gun sales to record breaking levels. Any efforts to introduce strict legislation will backfire, and the way that Americans are, a civil war could be a real prospect if pushed through.

You are 100% correct poorboy. Trying to restrict guns or take them away from Americans would certainly result in Civil War. Fortunately, this will not occur and the constant low level civil war already underway between Americans will continue at its daily kill rate.

Occasionally is also right. The American people as a whole have proven that they are not able to exercise sufficient self-control to be a safe, responsible gun society. The statistics prove it. They kill 100 of themselves and each other every day. And every few months, an accountant or schoolboy opens fire and kills dozens of innocent fellow citizens and maims hundreds.

 

[poorboy]

So in other words, don't do anything.

Just the response I'd expect from a pro-gun advocate.

You continue to ignore the FACTS.

FACT. Gun sales were on a consistent DECLINE after Trump, a pro-gun advocate was elected.

FACT. ATK, who owns Federal Cartridge, has made layoffs under the Trump administration. Under Obama, who wanted strict legislation, there were large ammunition shortages.

FACT. Almost all gun manufacturers are currently offering rebates to move their products. Gun prices are at their lowest point in 50 years.

FACT. Historic companies, such as Remington are on the verge of bankruptcy after record breaking firearms sales under Obama. They've fired their CEO and are reorganizing.

FACT. Silencerco and other suppressor manufacturers are laying off.

FACT. Firearm accessory companies such as Brownell's have been offering free shipping, sometimes no matter how little you spend to keep up sales. Something that didn't happen before Trump.

You can find all of this on the internet. You should do some research there Einstein. Facts are different than perception and opinion.

The only proven way to decrease gun sales in the U.S. is to do nothing or next to nothing.

 

[SchlongConery]

So in other words, don't do anything.

Just the response I'd expect from a pro-gun advocate.

So what do you suggests as a practical and effective plan to do "something"? One that actually has a chance of succeeding in a gun crazy country with hundreds of milliosn of firearms already in circulation?

I agree with poorboy that trying to take back the hundreds of millions of guns or otherwise be seen to curtail normal US citizens from the "American Dream" of owning their own assault rifle would result in Civil War. Such actions would create more casualties than if they just continue on with their daily 100 ration of 100 firearms deaths. Deaths that they are seemingly ok with.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

So what do you suggests as a practical and effective plan to do "something"? One that actually has a chance of succeeding in a gun crazy country with hundreds of milliosn of firearms already in circulation?

I agree with poorboy that trying to take back the hundreds of millions of guns or otherwise be seen to curtail normal US citizens from the "American Dream" of owning their own assault rifle would result in Civil War. Such actions would create more casualties than if they just continue on with their daily 100 ration of 100 firearms deaths. Deaths that they are seemingly ok with

There is no way to stop all this, thats the problem.

Just as there is no way you can stop someone from renting a Ryder truck and driving a few miles over the Yonge street sidewalk downtown Toronto killing as many people as possible

 

[SchlongConery]

There is no way to stop all this, thats the problem.

Just as there is no way you can stop someone from renting a Ryder truck and driving a few miles over the Yonge street sidewalk downtown Toronto killing as many people as possible

Ed Zachary!

The underlying problem is society.

And, with time, it always fixes itself.

Always.

 

[Occasionally]

So what do you suggests as a practical and effective plan to do "something"? One that actually has a chance of succeeding in a gun crazy country with hundreds of milliosn of firearms already in circulation?

I agree with poorboy that trying to take back the hundreds of millions of guns or otherwise be seen to curtail normal US citizens from the "American Dream" of owning their own assault rifle would result in Civil War. Such actions would create more casualties than if they just continue on with their daily 100 ration of 100 firearms deaths. Deaths that they are seemingly ok with.

I don't know.

But given the killings per capita vs. every other western country, it's clear the US is in no shape to handle guns in a loose fashion.

I'm too lazy to link to gun killing/violence charts (edit: just did a few links), but I wouldn't be surprised if the US per capita violence is more than all other developed western countries combined. I've seen those types of charts and the US is off the charts. Every other first world country has pretty similar/muted rates, and then you see the US in the number one spot and it's like the chart just morphed into Mt Everest.

And we're talking on a per capita basis, not absolute numbers (which the US destroys as well), since the US has 300,000,000+ million. So based on pure math, it makes sense the US has more absolute number, but not at the huge over and above numbers they get.

It looks so odd, you'd think the computer calculating the numbers has a formula error.

Mental disorder checks should be done, but IMO not as important as it seems. There's lots of smart maniacs out there. The stereotype of a maniac is he's some dummy. But in reality, many are intelligent and can surely game any personality test. This Vegas shooter was an accountant. So right off the bat, it's pretty certain he's pretty smart and clever already.

And when it comes to approving the process, who knows how loosey goosey the approval process is.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

 

[Occasionally]

There is no way to stop all this, thats the problem.

Just as there is no way you can stop someone from renting a Ryder truck and driving a few miles over the Yonge street sidewalk downtown Toronto killing as many people as possible

Pretty sad world when moving vans are now pegged as effective tools by wackos.

But hey, that's how they think.

If someone asked me to list weapons that kill, I'd ring off the usual stuff like guns and knives. But someone came up with the idea of moving vans and it's worked.

 

[basketcase]

That wouldnt have stopped Paddock because there were no red flags with him, plus he didnt have a criminal record.

Also, if I want to get a gun illegally all I have to do is drive to Jane & Finch and I'll have a gun within minutes

You're right about Paddock but it would cut down on many other gun deaths. And illegal guns are available but tend to be more expensive than the US (which is where the vast majority come from). It's been a long time since I was friends with gangsters but getting a gun in Canada is still much harder than the US. Beyond doing a consistent, nationwide job trying to keep guns out of the hands of the dangerous, the US needs to allow the ATF to do its job and shut down the small number of sketchy gun dealers who are the source of the majority of illegal guns in the US.

 

[basketcase]

Both you and basketcase are quite dense. I've stated twice making a legal mag prohib only takes drilling out a rivet and isn't going to stop someone from committing a crime.....

And again you are saying laws are useless because people will find way to break them. It is like saying speed limits are pointless because people will still be able to step on the gas or child molestation shouldn't be illegal because people will find way to do it.

The laws are there to help the majority and allow the authorities to prosecute those who choose to break them.

 

[SchlongConery]

I don't know.

But given the killings per capita vs. every other western country, it's clear the US is in no shape to handle guns in a loose fashion.

I'm too lazy to link to gun killing/violence charts (edit: just did a few links), but I wouldn't be surprised if the US per capita violence is more than all other developed western countries combined. I've seen those types of charts and the US is off the charts. Every other first world country has pretty similar/muted rates, and then you see the US in the number one spot and it's like the chart just morphed into Mt Everest.

And we're talking on a per capita basis, not absolute numbers (which the US destroys as well), since the US has 300,000,000+ million. So based on pure math, it makes sense the US has more absolute number, but not at the huge over and above numbers they get.

It looks so odd, you'd think the computer calculating the numbers has a formula error.

Mental disorder checks should be done, but IMO not as important as it seems. There's lots of smart maniacs out there. The stereotype of a maniac is he's some dummy. But in reality, many are intelligent and can surely game any personality test. This Vegas shooter was an accountant. So right off the bat, it's pretty certain he's pretty smart and clever already.

And when it comes to approving the process, who knows how loosey goosey the approval process is.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

Yes, we agree that our friends in the United States have a big gun problem. No need for more statistics. But they are well past the point of meaningful "gun control". As poorboy so astutely noted, even the notion of gun control causes more guns to be produced and purchased. And there is NO telling who anyone really is and how they think. This 64 year old balding schlub of a former accountant and real estate investor, gambler, country music fan and all around Wholesome White American just machine gunned a crowd of TWENTY THOUSAND fellow citizens- and fellow country music fans! And he was planing it for a year! And nobody near him had a clue! HOW are you going to forsee, prevent and protect against another one of these All American terrorists? Gun control? He had a few hundred pounds of ammonium nitrate in his car. Just plain old fertilizer availalble at any garden centre. I doubt he was much of a gardener.

I hate to say it but there is really nothing that can be done except to hope for an inspirational leader who will strike a chord with Americans and the world and try to change the conflicted and divided society the world is devolving into.

 

[basketcase]

There is no way to stop all this, thats the problem.

Just as there is no way you can stop someone from renting a Ryder truck and driving a few miles over the Yonge street sidewalk downtown Toronto killing as many people as possible

As I mentioned before about this comparison, no one objects to drivers needing a license and cars being registered.

You're right though. Nothing will stop it completely but that's a poor reason not to try.

My suggestions for US policy:
- make firearms federal jurisdiction so all states have consistent rules
- private sales must be through registered dealers (as some states already have)
- gun owners must be licensed (like a PAL) which includes a background check and passing a gun safety course.
- Crack down on dealers with large numbers of suspicious sales/straw purchases

Except for the first one, it wouldn't be much of a change for many states.

 

[poorboy]

And again you are saying laws are useless because people will find way to break them. It is like saying speed limits are pointless because people will still be able to step on the gas or child molestation shouldn't be illegal because people will find way to do it.

The laws are there to help the majority and allow the authorities to prosecute those who choose to break them.

Speed limits are a poor choice of an example. Everyone speeds. People drive at a speed they deem reasonable for the road conditions. Lots of research out there that shows that. As well, if you're doing less than 15 over, the police tend to leave you alone. A mag is either pinned or it's not. There's no "he has only 3 or 4 rounds over the legal 10 round limit, so he's OK."

Child molestation is also another piss poor example. Besides being morally wrong, the act of molesting a child is a crime. There's no places in Canada or the U.S. where it's OK to molest a child, but not in others, or if you molest a child once or twice, it's OK, but if you exceed that, it's a crime. Lots of states allow possession of a 30 round magazine. It is not morally wrong to own a 30 round magazine. There are plenty of legal uses for a 30 round magazine as I've written about earlier, despite what you might think. As well, who came up with 10 rounds as a "safe number of rounds". There's no research to back that up as far as I can tell. It's probably just a number some nimrod picked that is easily defeated by just having more magazines.

Instead of recycling and bringing up useless ideas made up by people who know nothing about the problem they are trying to regulate, do some research and get the FACTS.

Society needs laws, but the laws need to make sense.

 

[Occasionally]

Yes, we agree that our friends in the United States have a big gun problem. No need for more statistics. But they are well past the point of meaningful "gun control". As poorboy so astutely noted, even the notion of gun control causes more guns to be produced and purchased. And there is NO telling who anyone really is and how they think. This 64 year old balding schlub of a former accountant and real estate investor, gambler, country music fan and all around Wholesome White American just machine gunned a crowd of TWENTY THOUSAND fellow citizens- and fellow country music fans! And he was planing it for a year! And nobody near him had a clue! HOW are you going to forsee, prevent and protect against another one of these All American terrorists? Gun control? He had a few hundred pounds of ammonium nitrate in his car. Just plain old fertilizer availalble at any garden centre. I doubt he was much of a gardener.

I hate to say it but there is really nothing that can be done except to hope for an inspirational leader who will strike a chord with Americans and the world and try to change the conflicted and divided society the world is devolving into.

I don't see anything changing. At least not in my lifetime. The US mentality and NRA are too much into guns and military, and the government can never seem to clamp down hard enough. And the population takes political laws too literally. Those amendments and gun laws were written up probably when soldiers were riding horses and shot muskets from 100 yards. A reload required some dude to reach into a pouch and pour in gunpowder. That type of shit. Not drive by shootings, silencer attachments, high count clips and automatic fire with long range where any moron can buy a gun..... or 20 of them.

The best thing would be a cultural change (which I think you were getting at), where people stop acting all gung ho with guns, and nitwits stop committing crime. This "should" decrease the love of guns and people can just chill out.

But the American attitude has always been one of "tough guy, I can do what I want", so things won't be changing any time soon.