Man with knife on streetcar at Dundas and Grace, shot by police
- Thread starter Shrugged
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My favourite part is the bicycle cop in his little shorts and white helmet, awkwardly trying to not look like a pussy.
Anyhow all I can guess is that he was moving towards the controls to put the car in gear. That thing would become a lethal weapon, and the cops would have had no way of knowing whether the car was locked down or easily movable. Or, he had a gun that we couldn't see from this one video (or was making as though he was reaching for a gun). Those are the only reasons I can come up with for them having killed him. Otherwise, wait him out, taze him, throw a stun grenade, bring in a dog, whatever. But I wasn't there, so can't comment authoritatively.
Anyhow all I can guess is that he was moving towards the controls to put the car in gear. That thing would become a lethal weapon, and the cops would have had no way of knowing whether the car was locked down or easily movable. Or, he had a gun that we couldn't see from this one video (or was making as though he was reaching for a gun). Those are the only reasons I can come up with for them having killed him. Otherwise, wait him out, taze him, throw a stun grenade, bring in a dog, whatever. But I wasn't there, so can't comment authoritatively.
Thanks, Phil, that the most detailed report I've heard yet, and the enhanced video is very informative.
This looks very bad for the police, there is really no immediate peril from this "110 pound" kid with a small knife 10-20 feet away from the police.
LOL. I was half-tempted to say that people who don't make a fuss about this death because the kid was white, are racist, but we all know how those threads turn out!!!Thank god it wasnt some Black kid, or we wouldnt hear the end of it for the next 3 months
It could be that the subject had not been incapacitated by the first volley of shots with a knife still in his hands and continuing to ignore any commands to drop them. There is nothing in the video to suggest that this wasn't the case.
This kid might have been under influence of drugs or something. Apparently he pulled out his dick at some point:
http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=193714
Couldve ended much differently
http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=193714
This sounds like excellent work done by TTC driver for getting passengers off the streetcar, then somehow he was able to call 911 and then managed to escape himself.
Couldve ended much differently
I think he went down still clutching the knife and waving it around. Which could mean he was juiced up on some pretty serious drugs. They went in to tazer him likely because was STILL waving the knife around, even after being shot a bunch of times.
Of course.... as cunninglinguist pointed out.... the cops aren't exactly marksmen. They might have missed him a whole bunch of times. The average cop practices firing their handgun exactly once a year, when they are required to qualify, and never fire it any other time all year long. When they need a marksman, they call in SWAT--those guys practice every single day and know their shit. The average beat cop probably can't hit the broad side of a barn door.
So the cop firing at him might have missed six or seven times before hitting him in some non critical area, and just kept blasting away until they finally really hit him.
Time to wait for toxicology report I think before any futher thoughts(for me at least).
9 shots is kind of tough to fathom......but if he was high then perhaps justified.
Streetcar driver is definitely to be commended for quick thinking and reaction. He way well have saved a life.
9 shots is kind of tough to fathom......but if he was high then perhaps justified.
Streetcar driver is definitely to be commended for quick thinking and reaction. He way well have saved a life.
The enhanced video makes a number of things abundantly clear: the police rushed to act when they had no need to do so, putting innocent lives in danger.
As others have noted, they had NOT closed down the scene - other traffic can be seen just seconds before the shots were fired, and had NO business whatsoever putting themselves or others in harms way if they felt the victim was a threat. (I.e. they should have stood in a location where the man could not have lunged at them).
Instead, they fired recklessly - a stray bullet could have hit passing traffic or an officer entering the scene from the rear door to control the victim - at a time when no imminent danger is visible on tape, only a short few seconds after shouting to drop the knife.
The video shows that non-lethal options (Taser) were available to the officers at the scene, and that letal force was chosen in a situation when it was not required to be used.
The SIU tend to exonerate officers when there is even a modicum of doubt that lethal force was an option, and I expect them to do the same after their investigation in this instance, but that doesn't make it right.
As others have noted, they had NOT closed down the scene - other traffic can be seen just seconds before the shots were fired, and had NO business whatsoever putting themselves or others in harms way if they felt the victim was a threat. (I.e. they should have stood in a location where the man could not have lunged at them).
Instead, they fired recklessly - a stray bullet could have hit passing traffic or an officer entering the scene from the rear door to control the victim - at a time when no imminent danger is visible on tape, only a short few seconds after shouting to drop the knife.
The video shows that non-lethal options (Taser) were available to the officers at the scene, and that letal force was chosen in a situation when it was not required to be used.
The SIU tend to exonerate officers when there is even a modicum of doubt that lethal force was an option, and I expect them to do the same after their investigation in this instance, but that doesn't make it right.
Are u serious?!
Dude did nothing ...did not motion toward them at all...even if he did, it was just the sway of a drunk, hardly the rush of an MMA fighter! Just saw it on the news again. 18 yr old. The cops all well away from him then dude with the guy slaughters him like an animal! What a fucking joke! Taser? Well, we thought of that your honor, but it could have blown back in our eyes. That shit really stings! What's that? Shoot him in the legs? That's a good one...uhm, well, he was in that confined area, but did you see the size of that kids' legs!? He's built like a linebacker!!! He could have rushed towards me, ducking around the bullets like Neo, and the where would me and all the other 9 cops around me be now?
FUCKING SAD SAD SAD JOKE!!!
How many times is this shit gonna happen in this city?! We all know guns beat knives! Cops could have done soooo many other things to preserve a life, but NO!
He did step towards them, and did so after they told him if he took another step he would be shot (you can hear it if you listen carefully). He took a step, and they shot him.
On the other hand, just before that, he stepped back. So he had moved back, and seems like maybe he just moved forward again to where he had been originally.
In any case, they were yelling "drop the knife" and he wasn't dropping the knife -- something was definitely wrong with him.
On the other hand, just before that, he stepped back. So he had moved back, and seems like maybe he just moved forward again to where he had been originally.
In any case, they were yelling "drop the knife" and he wasn't dropping the knife -- something was definitely wrong with him.
Another angle you have to consider, when cops first arrived on the scene things were very chaotic and they probably werent sure if there were hostages still stuck on the streetcar. Maybe they thought some were hiding under the seats.
Then what??! Are cops supposed to let the suspect retreat so he can start stabbing people who are hiding in the back of the streetcar??! If they did that then afterwards people would ask "why didnt you shoot the suspect when you had the chance"?
Then what??! Are cops supposed to let the suspect retreat so he can start stabbing people who are hiding in the back of the streetcar??! If they did that then afterwards people would ask "why didnt you shoot the suspect when you had the chance"?
Ya, you must be watching The Negotiator movie.
He had a knife. Deserved 9 bullets (really deserves 10).
Anyone defending police officers on this one are fools. No one deserves to be shot in under 2 minutes in a situation that could be brought under control easily by experienced officers. The police have very strict mandates on lethal force and none will fit this shooting.
I will tell you this- There is a TTC video tape of the shooting. Early word is that it will make it look like an execution rather then a justified shooting. Mark my words- it's bad for the cops. If any of you leave your houses once in a while and interact with police you will see that many are unstable and I wouldn't want them 10 ft. near me. I work with them and the system daily and these new guys coming up are incompetent, aggressive and dangerous.
I support the police, they are far too often and easily maligned. But if it turns out that the deceased was alone in the streetcar and was shot from the street then the cop will likely (and properly) be charged. Three shots while he was standing and six more after he fell? At least we have been spared the added outrage if the kid had been black. That would likely have been on CNN.
