Kirby Puckett- better off dead!
- Thread starter barkfart
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Starting Pitchers from the 1980's get no respect. Jack Morris was perhaps the best over that entire period, and he deserves to get in.Rockslinger said:Why is Jack Morris not in the baseball Hall of Fame?
Think about it
- Clemens only started in 1986.
- Gooden was great from 85,86, and then doped out.
- Maddux only became dominant in the late 80's
- There was alot of 250+ win pitchers who finished there careers in the early 80's (Palmer, Perry, Bert Bly)
But I can't think of many people listed as "Great" who were good over the entire decade. I think they need some representation.
And the other thing is that player's from the 80's are getting the shaft, because they are compared to player with post-94 inflated stats.
...they say Bonds has to rest after about 15 swings in Batting practices, all that juice may have caught up with him. Its hard to find sympathy for the guy. A 2 foot dwarf I can understand a chip on his shoulder. A multi millionaire baseball player ? Bonds is proof, you cant buy class.
Then this should benefit pitchers from the 80's when there were not as many runs scored and 30 HR 100 RBI meant dominating cleanup hitter and pitcher's ERA's were much lower.hak said:And the other thing is that player's from the 80's are getting the shaft, because they are compared to player with post-94 inflated stats.
With that said, Jack Morris' ERA was very unimpressive for his era. In fact his career ERA is only a little lower than the league average during that stretch (3.90 vs 4.08). Compare this to say Tom Glavine, whose career ERA is more than half a run better than the league average (3.44 vs 4.15).
Morris deserves a lot of credit for winning a lot of games and pitching a lot of innings. He was a workhorse and an ace. He also pitched that 10 inning shutout vs the Braves. But I think he is just short of HOF credentials.
McGwire tooshack said:Barry Bonds' off field "behaviour" won't keep him out, but his off-field cheating activities should.
jack morris
ah yes, he was a prick... and what a prick he was!
Man, I lived in Detroit when he was career was peaking (the first of many times), and he was a hoot. Just dig in, chuck it down the plate, and a good "fuck you" to all the reporters. He was so easy to love, and so easy to hate. But when the big game comes, nobody wants to be facing Jack Morris.
Extending the thread to pitchers who didn't get in... What about Tommy John?
288 wins, coupla world series, and... the intangible: namesake of the operation that changed the game.
But that's not Hall of Fame. If you're a pitcher, that means strike out a lot of people and keep your mouth shut.
Here's why I hate Nolan Ryan so much. He sucked. Compare these two, and you'll appreciate how mediocre his career was:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml
Nolan Ryan, and ...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml
Roger clemens
to think that they could even be mentioned in the same breath. Ryan is the most over-rated to ever take the mound.
rant rant rant
ah yes, he was a prick... and what a prick he was!
Man, I lived in Detroit when he was career was peaking (the first of many times), and he was a hoot. Just dig in, chuck it down the plate, and a good "fuck you" to all the reporters. He was so easy to love, and so easy to hate. But when the big game comes, nobody wants to be facing Jack Morris.
Extending the thread to pitchers who didn't get in... What about Tommy John?
288 wins, coupla world series, and... the intangible: namesake of the operation that changed the game.
But that's not Hall of Fame. If you're a pitcher, that means strike out a lot of people and keep your mouth shut.
Here's why I hate Nolan Ryan so much. He sucked. Compare these two, and you'll appreciate how mediocre his career was:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml
Nolan Ryan, and ...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml
Roger clemens
to think that they could even be mentioned in the same breath. Ryan is the most over-rated to ever take the mound.
rant rant rant
how about these stats?
Wins- Clemens averages 17-8 a season. Ryan: 13-12
20 game winning seasons- Clemens 6. Ryan 2
Cy Young Awards- Clemens 7. Ryan 0.
And how about those walks?
And except for Cy Young, Ryan has the most losses (of course Cy Young won 6 or 7 hundred games)
Nolan Ryan never won shit, except the mastrubatory praise of the strikeout-charting freaks who will insist that Kerry Wood is the best pitcher in the majors today!
rant rant rant
Wins- Clemens averages 17-8 a season. Ryan: 13-12
20 game winning seasons- Clemens 6. Ryan 2
Cy Young Awards- Clemens 7. Ryan 0.
And how about those walks?
And except for Cy Young, Ryan has the most losses (of course Cy Young won 6 or 7 hundred games)
Nolan Ryan never won shit, except the mastrubatory praise of the strikeout-charting freaks who will insist that Kerry Wood is the best pitcher in the majors today!
rant rant rant
The HOF likes longevity and Ryan certainly had that. People are also enamored with power pitchers and again, Ryan was one. He is the all time leader in 2 of the most overrated stats for a pitcher - K's and no-no's. And the dude did win over 300 games which is the magic number for auto-induction into the HOF.barkfart said:Here's why I hate Nolan Ryan so much. He sucked. Compare these two, and you'll appreciate how mediocre his career was:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml
Nolan Ryan, and ...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml
Roger clemens
to think that they could even be mentioned in the same breath. Ryan is the most over-rated to ever take the mound.
rant rant rant
btw - I think he is overrated also.
Yeah, but...
And what is even more amazing is the 2 dozen or whatever it is ONE HITTERS.
Yes, Ryan lost a lot of games. But he also pitched for a lot of lousy teams. I mean we are talking about a guy who once had a 2.27 ERA in 39 starts and still lost 16 games...and on another occassion had a 2.70 ERA with 270 Ks in only 211 IPs...and went 8 and 16. That tell me he is getting very, very little support.
I don't know if he was over rated or not - I've never heard anyone call him the best pitcher of all time or anything like that. But he was the most feared pitcher in baseball for a LONG LONG time. And he took the ball every 5th day without fail for many, many years, gave his team a chance to win more often than not, and won 300 games for teams that most of his career were under .500
I'd say his achievements, along with his stats, make him a HOF guy...
...don't you think it is amazing that he had those 7 no hitters? You don't think that was luck, do you?Don said:The HOF likes longevity and Ryan certainly had that. People are also enamored with power pitchers and again, Ryan was one. He is the all time leader in 2 of the most overrated stats for a pitcher - K's and no-no's. And the dude did win over 300 games which is the magic number for auto-induction into the HOF.
btw - I think he is overrated also.
And what is even more amazing is the 2 dozen or whatever it is ONE HITTERS.
Yes, Ryan lost a lot of games. But he also pitched for a lot of lousy teams. I mean we are talking about a guy who once had a 2.27 ERA in 39 starts and still lost 16 games...and on another occassion had a 2.70 ERA with 270 Ks in only 211 IPs...and went 8 and 16. That tell me he is getting very, very little support.
I don't know if he was over rated or not - I've never heard anyone call him the best pitcher of all time or anything like that. But he was the most feared pitcher in baseball for a LONG LONG time. And he took the ball every 5th day without fail for many, many years, gave his team a chance to win more often than not, and won 300 games for teams that most of his career were under .500
I'd say his achievements, along with his stats, make him a HOF guy...
Two reasons...
2) Look at Mattingly's last years. The back was killing him. His career was over - there was no more to be had. Look at Puckett's last years - he was an all star to the very end. So..be that fair or unfair, it is a pretty save bet that had Kirby not had his career ended he was headed for 3000 hits and 300 HR EASY...with multiple WS rings and Gold Gloves. A HOF without doubt or question.
Mattinglys cumlative stats reflect those of man who was hanging on...he hit .300 only once in his last six years...never topped 20 HR...never topped 90 RBIs. Puckett entire career was All Star numbers (save for 1989). And remember, Puckett was putting up those numbers while playing CENTER FIELD. Mattingly may have been the best hitter in baseball during those magic 5 years, but good hitting 1st basemen are not exactly rare (though they admittedly don't hit like Mattingly). Puckett was argueably the best hitting centerfielder since DiMaggio / Mantle (and before Ken Griffy Jr.)...while winning Gold Gloves.
The career numbers are similar, and yes, Mattingly was robbed by his back injury. BUt to answer your question why, it is because Puckett was having a HOF Career (again, I remind you...he played center field) that was cut short....Mattingly had a great 5 years, but had no more left.
1) Puckett has two World Series rings. mattingly never even played in a series. Not his fault, and I think a player should NEVER be kept out because he didn't play in / win a WS - have I done my Andre Dawson rant lately? - but I DO think a player should get credit for playing a major role on a team that DID win. And Puckett can say that in spades (actually, he can't say shit now, but you get the point)Don said:Mattingly is one of my favorite players of all time (hence my username) but even I will admit that his career numbers are not hall worthy. I understand the HOF voters want longevity and a bad back ruined Mattingly of that.
Since I understand why Mattingly is not in the hall, I can't understand why Puckett was a first ballot HOF'er. Ok I do understand (people liked him).... but I don't think he should. Speaking of short periods of dominance, I feel the same way about Koufax.
2) Look at Mattingly's last years. The back was killing him. His career was over - there was no more to be had. Look at Puckett's last years - he was an all star to the very end. So..be that fair or unfair, it is a pretty save bet that had Kirby not had his career ended he was headed for 3000 hits and 300 HR EASY...with multiple WS rings and Gold Gloves. A HOF without doubt or question.
Mattinglys cumlative stats reflect those of man who was hanging on...he hit .300 only once in his last six years...never topped 20 HR...never topped 90 RBIs. Puckett entire career was All Star numbers (save for 1989). And remember, Puckett was putting up those numbers while playing CENTER FIELD. Mattingly may have been the best hitter in baseball during those magic 5 years, but good hitting 1st basemen are not exactly rare (though they admittedly don't hit like Mattingly). Puckett was argueably the best hitting centerfielder since DiMaggio / Mantle (and before Ken Griffy Jr.)...while winning Gold Gloves.
The career numbers are similar, and yes, Mattingly was robbed by his back injury. BUt to answer your question why, it is because Puckett was having a HOF Career (again, I remind you...he played center field) that was cut short....Mattingly had a great 5 years, but had no more left.
That would be because...
...for those magical 5 years he was. Mattingly was Carew and Gwynn with power. For those 5 years...hitting off of pre Florida expension pitching...he WAS the best hitter in baseball.
But 5 years does not a HOF career make.
"but for some reason I always thought of Mattingly as one of the greatest hitters of the 80's "Don said:Actually that surprised me. I can't say I really knew all the stats of both players but for some reason I always thought of Mattingly as one of the greatest hitters of the 80's and Puckett not as much. Maybe because Mattingly was mainly a hitter while Puckett can do much more? More probably because for a time in the late 80's I spent a few years living in NYC and the NY hype machine drilled his greatness into my head. Don't know about Larry Bird-itis - I'm assuming that refers to Bird not being as great has his hype is but I thought Bird was pretty deserving of his accolades, just like Mattingly for a 5 year stretch was just awesome
Anyway while their stats were close, maybe Puckett was a better player for his speed and defense in CF. I still think it odd that Kirby was a first ballot HOF while Mattingly never had any hope for the HOF.
...for those magical 5 years he was. Mattingly was Carew and Gwynn with power. For those 5 years...hitting off of pre Florida expension pitching...he WAS the best hitter in baseball.
But 5 years does not a HOF career make.
Hence my confusion about Sandy Koufax in the HOF.MLAM said:But 5 years does not a HOF career make.
Granted I never saw him pitch, and he retired in the prime of his career due to injuries but looking at his stats it looks like his dominant stretch was also only 5 years.
I think in Koufax' case it's that those 5 years are so amazingly dominant they are probably the best 5 years strung together in the history of baseball. He was basically unhittable. A freak of nature during that period.Don said:Hence my confusion about Sandy Koufax in the HOF.
Granted I never saw him pitch, and he retired in the prime of his career due to injuries but looking at his stats it looks like his dominant stretch was also only 5 years.
Guess I needed to be there or something. Looking at stats alone yeah he was awesome but wouldn't say that stretch was the greatest ever for a pitcher.shack said:I think in Koufax' case it's that those 5 years are so amazingly dominant they are probably the best 5 years strung together in the history of baseball. He was basically unhittable. A freak of nature during that period.
He had what looks like 4 awesome years. 1963-1966: where he won 3 CY's.
But I'd say that I've seen several pitchers have just as good stretches for a 4 yr period:
Pedro from 1997-2000
The Big Unit from 1999-2002
Maddux from 1992-1995
just to name a few.
Here's a few stats. I haven't looked up the stats from the admittedly excellent pitchers you've listed, but I'd be surprised if they stack up overall. The closest, I imagine overall would be Maddux as I know he had some awesome years. (Just so I didn't put my foot in my mouth I did look up some of his stats, including his best 4 year stretch.) I'm not going to bother looking up the other 2 since aside from Unit's strikeouts I don't think they're close. Here goes.Don said:Guess I needed to be there or something. Looking at stats alone yeah he was awesome but wouldn't say that stretch was the greatest ever for a pitcher.
He had what looks like 4 awesome years. 1963-1966: where he won 3 CY's.
But I'd say that I've seen several pitchers have just as good stretches for a 4 yr period:
Pedro from 1997-2000
The Big Unit from 1999-2002
Maddux from 1992-1995
just to name a few.
Koufax:
1963:25-5, 20 complete games, 11 shutouts, 311 innings pitched, 306 strikeouts, 1.88 ERA(52% of the league average)
1964:19-5, 15CG, 7 Sh.O., 223 IP, 223SO, 1.74 ERA(49% of league average)
1965: 26-8, 27CG, 8 Sh.O, 335 IP, 382SO, 2.04 ERA (60% of league ave.)
1966: 27-9, 27CG, 5Sh.O, 323 IP, 317 SO, 1.73 ERA (50% of league ave.)
Koufax had to retire after that year because of arm troubles, so he obviously put up those '66 stats when he was much less than 100%. He was in too much pain.
Overall for those 4 years:
W-L 97-27 (.782 winning percentage), 89 complete games, 30 shutouts, 1192 innings, 1228 strikeouts, ERA 1.86
Maddux:
Best 4 year stretch 1992-95
W-L 75-29 (.721 winning percentage),37 complete games, 11 shutouts, 946 innings, 733 strikeouts, 1.98 ERA. The only place where Maddux was clearly ahead was his ERA in '94 and '95 which was around 1.60 both years.
Obviously some of Koufax's stats are higher because of pitching more innings but he still comes out ahead in winning percentage and ERA. It could be argued that pitching that many more innings could have tired him out resulting in some worse stats like giving up more runs in later innings.
I'm not sure what other stats you can come up with to show Maddux or the other 2 (who weren't as dominating as Maddux except for Unit's strikeouts) ever had a stretch of overall stats even close to Koufax's.
The shame is that if Koufax was coddled the way today's pitchers are, and with more modern medical treatments he would have had a longer career and much better career stats.
