Vehicle traffic is only going to get worse across Canada especially in the larger cities. With Trudeau upping immigration numbers for the next several years we will end up with more and more vehicles on our roads and highways and most cities have done a terrible job at planning proper infrastructure to deal with it. Unfortunately a lot of politicians just tell us to use public transit or bicycles as if that’s going to solve the problem.
King Street accessibility concerns
- Thread starter canada-man
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The problem isn't that the City is full of transit (or bicycles). It's that the City is full of cars, only 20% occupied by humans. Just filling up those empty seats with people who left their cars at home would be like instantly having 80% more road capacity.
Nothing 'solves' this sort of problem; if it could, none of us would have any reason to go anywhere. Get used to it it's called Life in the Big City. You can drive — and park — anywhere you feel like in ghost town Detroit, but in thriving cities around the world from Singapore to London getting around by personal car is an expensive luxury. Why would Toronto be any different?
News Flash: Rapid transit requires dedicated rights of way, and controlled access. Until King St. got rid of cars, there was no rapid transit along it.
Cars clog. They don't call it the Don Valley Parking Lot for nothing, but once it's tolled and access-controlled to limit vehicle loading to enable maximum throughput, then you could call it fast. Not efficient. Not with just one person every hundred feet of paved lane (and that's jamming cars unsafely close) but at least fast for those few who were allowed/paid the freight to use the road. Until car drivers are willing to pay for effective roads though, cars will continue to be the dumbest, least efficient way to get around in cities.
Actually, in Ontario, drivers overpay for the road infrastructure. Between the gas taxes, permits, and sale taxes on vehicles, drivers do pay their fair share. And then some. The relevant links to the actual numbers have been posted here, on similar threads. It's an urban myth supported by our dear governments who redirect automobile related revenues to other sources. Closing King St to car traffic is not adding rapid transit. They are just shuffling the chairs on the Titanic.
For the vast majority of people, the car is still the smartest and most efficient way to get around the this city. And by city, I mean the GTA, not just the downtown core. Now if your daily commute takes an hour by transit and two by car, you're an idiot. But that's not the case for many, many people.
If your commute by car vs. transit times are similar, the car has so many advantages. Sure it costs more, but it's worth it. And I can't imagine how difficult my life would be (and how long things would take) if I had to do even half of the stuff I do by car, on public transit.
So much bad planning. Let's build Lastman's white elephant and bury the construction already started on Eglinton back in the 90s. Big mistake to build Sheppard back then and not Eglinton. Instead of the UP they could have added extensions to the airport and Yonge by now. What major city doesn't have subway service to the airport? Let's not even get started on the never built Etobicoke LRT planned from Kipling station.....
I was driving on King st. today around 4pm, all the side streets like Pearl, Simcoe, John st....etc were completely plugged up
Right. But King St is downtown and a major transport corridor.
You will also find that the majority of people in the area prefer the King car to driving which is why the ridership is far higher than the number of drivers along king. In the bike land arguments, there is some merit to the argument of far more people driving than biking but in this case, daily ttc ridership on king is more than triple that of drivers before the pilot.
And I would expect the faster streetcar travel will result in more efficiency on the route and a slight reduction in the number of streetcars.
I've only used King in rush hour twice since the pilot began but both times my trips took about a third of the time.
Very sensible. You makes yer choice, you pays yer freight, You live with the consequences. That means avoiding King St. except for local access. Just like you'd avoid the Gardiner if you wanted local access.
And 60,000 other taxpayers who you're not impeding with a mostly unoccupied car than can only inch it's way through the downtown at the best of times salute you.
Toronto is getting smart traffic lights:
http://www.cp24.com/news/city-installing-smart-signals-at-22-intersections-1.3692182
http://www.cp24.com/news/city-installing-smart-signals-at-22-intersections-1.3692182
That side of Line 1 is already crush loaded for much of the day (as opposed to the West side of the line). Even when the new signal system in place and operational they can't really go North until they have the first leg of the relief line operating. They actually need the full relief line, and that would actually make money for the system. A Line 1 the people who actually live in Toronto can't actually get on for much of the day isn't going to help anything. At this point the crush loading start North of Midtown, extending the line North moves that point North along with it.
I took the King streetcar last weekend. The only problem was it was so packed that I had to wait for 6 or 7 to pass before I could get on one. I stood at King and Bathurst for 20 minutes with a large group of people before we could board. I think the new larger capacity streetcars we're still waiting for would help the situation.
I remember when Tory took office he said that virtually nothing had been done (and the budget axed) to improve traffic flow. He went on to say nothing had been done in years because Miller's theory was that if they do nothing it would make roads so congested, it would force people out of their cars and onto transit.
I guess Miller wasn't aware buses and streetcars share the same roads. What an idiot!
Add if the Eglinton Crosstown is a "success" then that's just going to jam up Line 1 even further.
I'd like to see a study which shows the revenue growth in downtown vs. people living there vs people from the burbs coming downtown.
What I'm trying to get at is burb guys like me don't go downtown as much anymore because it's too much of a hassle. And I'm not the type of guy to park at Kipling or Yorkdale and subway the rest of the way.
I see many friends feeling the same way. The combination of highway construction, fewer parking lots, and absurd parking fees make the trips less worthwhile.
However, since there's so many people coming to the GTA and endless condos downtown, maybe the revenue growth is perfectly fine and stores/restaurants don't need suburban customers as much as before.
I never understood downtowns curtailing traffic lanes. Downtowners can already walk, taxi, streetcar or subway easily to where they want to go. However, people from outside the core (people who want to visit downtown, or delivery trucks trying to drop off supplies), just get tangled up in more traffic.
It's not like sidewalks are too small and people are flowing into the street, or there's too much excess car lanes they can shave back a lane or two with no effect.
What I'm trying to get at is burb guys like me don't go downtown as much anymore because it's too much of a hassle. And I'm not the type of guy to park at Kipling or Yorkdale and subway the rest of the way.
I see many friends feeling the same way. The combination of highway construction, fewer parking lots, and absurd parking fees make the trips less worthwhile.
However, since there's so many people coming to the GTA and endless condos downtown, maybe the revenue growth is perfectly fine and stores/restaurants don't need suburban customers as much as before.
I never understood downtowns curtailing traffic lanes. Downtowners can already walk, taxi, streetcar or subway easily to where they want to go. However, people from outside the core (people who want to visit downtown, or delivery trucks trying to drop off supplies), just get tangled up in more traffic.
It's not like sidewalks are too small and people are flowing into the street, or there's too much excess car lanes they can shave back a lane or two with no effect.
Cars are the best way to travel in the majority of scenarios. As you said, it costs more, but the advantages are exponential vs. transit.
To me, taking transit is the best way in a small number of scenarios.... in which the best situations are if you are on a Go train/subway line were it can be fast and you bypass all the overland hassles, which, cars, BUSES and STREETCARS go through too. And like all public transit travels, it's best to do it carrying as few things as possible and hopefully catching it at the right time, or else your're standing there for half an hour, and if it's late night there might not even be an public transit anymore until the next morning. And lastly, public transit is best when your travel is an easy direct path. Have fun taking triple the time as a car if your trip involves taking a few transfers via buses and subway stations during non-rush hour time slots.
Just to give transit lovers an idea how silly it is. I can drive to work in half an hour. If I took the bus, it would involve walking to the stop, waiting for it, taking a bus to one stop, getting off and transferring to another (waiting for this second bus), taking it to my destination stop, and then walking to the office. It would take at least one hour. Maybe even hour and a half. And even worse.... winter is coming. Have fun standing at a bus stop in the snow.
That was the Santa Claus Parade weekend wasn't it? Of course what we really need is a subway across King or Queen, then running north up Pape. It's called the DRL these days, and R.C. harris pointed out we needed it already over a centrury ago. They even roughed in a lower level east-west platform under the Queen Station when they built the Yonge Line.
But the the Cons under Harris filled in the useful line us Torontonians were already a-digging, then screwed us over with amalgamation we didn't need and wanted even less. But it did smother the transit-happy Downtown Toronto voices, which is what he wanted. Then Robbie decided he needed suburban votes, and they could be bought by promising a subway. Even if it cost a fortune and took no one anywhere they needed to go, that buses couldn't service cheaper.
Transit City (which included those new streetcars) coulda been just about done by now, with King-style improvements all over the City for about the same money as the One Stop Subway. By January we'll have just 30% of the planning for the ScarBurrow, and they'll finally be able to do serious costing. But it's already doubled the highest cost Rob admitted to.
Frankly, the file to watch is the new TTC CEO's shortlist, not the long overdue improvement to King St. that should now be handed-off to the swivel servants. And keep the pols outta the transit-pie.
It was actually Saturday night around 8:00 PM.
I agree with the rest of your comments. :thumb:
Its much worse then that.
Transit City was fully funded by the province, wouldn't have cost the city anything.
Ford Station will cost us $3.6 billion at last count but there is a new estimate being prepped that Tory et al are refusing to release until after the next election.
Wanna bet whether its more or less then $3.6 billion?
Though it's going to be a huge improvement along Eglinton whose 32 and 34 bus routes are some of the busiest in the city, particularly where the foot of the Allen clogs much of central Eglinton. If you live, work, or go to school between Lawrence and St. Clair, across the whole of the city, that LRT line is going to be great even if you drive.
While the effects of the Crosstown have been studied people don't seem to be super confident about the total net effects of the project. That LRT line will be busy, and it will likely feed more people to the Eglinton and Eglinton West Subway stations especially if they extend it out to the proposed Pearson Hub (likely) and further East to UofT Scarborough (less likely because of the cost of the one stop wonder). It will also likely to divert some people from the Bloor-Danforth line and relieve some congestion at the Line 1 & 2 Transfer points. It will undoubtedly help with congestion near the foot of Allen by taking buses and cars off the road. A lot is going to come down to how many new riders the Crosstown generates, where these riders come from, and how far this line eventually goes. Given that people are creatures of habit it will take some time for people to adjust, and for the full picture to emerge.
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Absolutely true but downtown is the exception. The king streetcar for example handles 65,000 people per day, people who decided that transit is a far better option than driving in rush hour traffic then finding expensive and rare downtown parking. Simply put, the King st. road users are already over 75% transit so it makes sense to make the majority's travel easier. And of course creating more parking downtown to lower the cost is a physical impossibility.
If they proposed rules like this King project on Finch or Kipling, I'd agree about how stupid it is but King makes sense.
p.s Patrick Brown is saying that the Tories would support more subways. I wonder where he's going to get the money without a massive tax hike.
For sure.
Mass transit is definitely the best option downtown due to congestion and lack of parking/expensive parking. Heck, depending how busy it is and where someone is going, it might be best to just walk it. But even then so, the benefit of downtown transit is most advantageous during busy times. If I lived downtown and needed to go somewhere during off hours and walking is too far, a car ride is faster.
Unfortunately, locations like downtown don't work well during busy times because there's just too many people living there, working there and most busy downtown streets are 4 lanes at most. It's so crammed some side sts are 2 lanes, and they have to resort to one way sts to make the flow of traffic better.
So in reality, the reason why it's gets so jammed is due to lousy city planning where the city green lights endless permits for skyscrapers and a million condos downtown while doing nothing to streets, nothing to subways (aside from extensions), and nothing really to streetcars/bus routes either.
So the only thing they have left is cut down on vehicles as a last resort.
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