Karen Stintz sat flat on her ass.

[fmahovalich]

So the BIG OneCity plan has no legs.

At least Ford got something to Council.

Stintz, having failed to speak to higher Governments, sees her plan dashed before Council even sees it.

Yes..finally..it had subways as Ford wants....but perhaps she should have let Chiarelli in on the plan before Going to the media.

 

[d_jedi]

Drawing lines on a map (almost wrote MPA, there. That would be.. different ). A pointless exercise that doesn't get us any closer to relieving gridlock in the city.

Plus, the tax hike proposed only covers 33.3% of the total cost, and just assumes the other 66.7% will somehow be magically endowed by the feds and the province. Slow clap.

Ford's subway proposal was more feasible than this..

 

[groggy]

So the BIG OneCity plan has no legs.

At least Ford got something to Council.

Stintz, having failed to speak to higher Governments, sees her plan dashed before Council even sees it.

Yes..finally..it had subways as Ford wants....but perhaps she should have let Chiarelli in on the plan before Going to the media.

Ford?
Ha.

His only plan was to blow the city's wad on a couple of measly km's of subway in an area that doesn't and won't have the population density to support it.
And he couldn't convince a dozen or so other people to believe him when he said he could finance it.

 

[fmahovalich]

At least Ford took a plan to Council.

Stintz...'the almighty savior'. Forgot to ask the Feds and McGuinty for money.....her plan won't see.
council chambers doors for some time!

 

[groggy]

At least Ford took a plan to Council.

Stintz...'the almighty savior'. Forgot to ask the Feds and McGuinty for money.....her plan won't see.
council chambers doors for some time!

2 days into what would be a 30 year plan if it happens and you are saying she forgot to ask for money?
A plan of this scope would take a year or two to cost it, plan it and budget it before it could hit council.

Meanwhile, what was Ford's plan?
Scrap the smart transit plan that was in place, pretend to be able to find private money and then hope that he could convince the province to fund a puny, underutilized subway?

 

[Garrett]

2 days into what would be a 30 year plan if it happens and you are saying she forgot to ask for money?
A plan of this scope would take a year or two to cost it, plan it and budget it before it could hit council.

The problem is, you do the leg work before you announce. If I uncorked a plan in this manner at my company, I would be laughed out of the room. If you announce a 30B plan with tax implications for an entire city, you do your homework. Stintz did not.

 

[Moviefan-2]

The Stintz supporters have been somewhat reluctant to comment on the McGuinty government's rejection of the plan. Why is that?

 

[oldjones]

Chiarelli did not reject the plan, but simply said that the province was continuing with the improved LRT to Scarborough and other lines now underway, rather than switching to the new One City subway plan. As for the rest of the proposal he just said it had to be reviewed, costed and approved by Council. Duh!

It is the normal course of events.

 

[train]

The Stintz supporters have been somewhat reluctant to comment on the McGuinty government's rejection of the plan. Why is that?

Yes I was wondering why Anbarandy/fuji haven't so much as uttered a chirp.

 

[fmahovalich]

Deep down, I think Stintz may be a Secret Ford plant.

She has come around, planning subways left right and centre, and more shockingly, even is now DISMANTLING LRT lines.

Makes you wanna go.... Hmmmmm.

I think Ford, who is not running for Mayor again, may in fact be handing the subways plans off to Stintz.

Interesting stuff at City Hall.

 

[oldjones]

Deep down, I think Stintz may be a Secret Ford plant.

She has come around, planning subways left right and centre, and more shockingly, even is now DISMANTLING LRT lines.

Makes you wanna go.... Hmmmmm.

I think Ford, who is not running for Mayor again, may in fact be handing the subways plans off to Stintz.

Interesting stuff at City Hall.

What? Missed that, do tell.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Chiarelli did not reject the plan, but simply said that the province was continuing with the improved LRT to Scarborough and other lines now underway, rather than switching to the new One City subway plan. As for the rest of the proposal he just said it had to be reviewed, costed and approved by Council. Duh!

Not quite.

He said it's "not implementable" and the government would be proceeding with the already approved plan, which was also brought forward by Stintz.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/06/29/toronto-ontario-not-backing-onecity.html

"OneCity is not implementable in the near time frame," he said. "It requires a lot of work, a lot of decisions, a lot of debate."

I guess you don't want to comment on the rejection of the plan.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Lorrie Goldstein at the Toronto Sun has a new column on this issue that really nails it. The title of the column is: Ford haters' transit plan

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/01/goldstein-ford-haters-transit-plan

Goldstein doesn't seem to be struggling to understand the province's response, which he says was to "shoot down" the plan.

He also does a great job describing the many flaws with the plan.

After all, her plan — which appears to have been drawn on the back of a napkin by throwing in every pie-in-the-sky idea pitched for Toronto transit over the past few decades — was developed in secret by Stintz and company.

Apparently without consulting the two senior levels of government which would have to pay for two-thirds of it.

Certainly without consulting Torontonians, who would have to pay $10 billion in total or a tax hike of about $5,000 each on the average home, solely for this plan — in addition to all other property tax increases.

That’s what Stintz’s phased-in, $180-a-year property tax hike on the average home for 30 years actually means.

If you’re wondering how Stintz’s plan fits into developing an integrated regional transit system for the Greater Toronto Area that planning experts have been telling us for years is the only effective way to combat the gridlock that is costing our economy billions of dollars annually, it doesn’t.

If anything, Stintz’s plan appears to be an attempted coup by the TTC against Metrolinx, the province’s regional transportation planning authority, which the TTC has never liked.

Stintz’s plan also doesn’t address how to meet the operating costs of OneCity, a chronic problem with grand transit schemes which only address, however unrealistically, capital costs.

To sum up, Stintz’s plan doesn’t pass muster on the very thing Ford Haters United praise it for — realism.

I encourage everyone to read Goldstein's piece -- the best column so far on this issue.

 

[larry]

If it's less than $200 a year to build this, they should get crackin'. that's peanuts. but we all know it's a little like drugs. easy to start. but hard to get out of. boston's big ditch probably sounded good too.

and i haven't checked, but does ms. stintz have a masters in transit or anything like that? why would councillers who mostly know nothing be debating these complex issues? shouldn't somebody who knows something be advising? and who are these "city staff" who can investigate anything? how do they know so much?

 

[Moviefan-2]

LOL. According to the Toronto Star, the Stintz plan "struggles for support":

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...-s-onecity-transit-plan-struggles-for-support

The headline refers to the fact that city councillors aren't too hot on the plan. In the broader context, though, that headline is pretty funny (and to think, someone in another thread suggested conservatives have no sense of humour).

Councillor Shelley Carroll raises an interesting point. The tax increases proposed by Stintz would be in addition to other tax increases people will face, which may not fit with the public's understanding of the issue.

“I’m concerned we’re getting ahead of ourselves,” she said. “Right now a big part of the inflationary increase that we must do in our regular city budget each year is to handle the inflation demands that are being placed by the current transit system.”

Meanwhile, I wonder how Stintz and De Baeremaeker are doing with the phantom $20 billion in revenues? Given the province has rejected the plan and the feds ain't likely to pony up, it may be time to get a new napkin and scribble together a new funding proposal.

 

[slowpoke]

LOL. According to the Toronto Star, the Stintz plan "struggles for support":

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...-s-onecity-transit-plan-struggles-for-support

The headline refers to the fact that city councillors aren't too hot on the plan. In the broader context, though, that headline is pretty funny (and to think, someone in another thread suggested conservatives have no sense of humour).

Councillor Shelley Carroll raises an interesting point. The tax increases proposed by Stintz would be in addition to other tax increases people will face, which may not fit with the public's understanding of the issue.



Meanwhile, I wonder how Stintz and De Baeremaeker are doing with the phantom $20 billion in revenues? Given the province has rejected the plan and the feds ain't likely to pony up, it may be time to get a new napkin and scribble together a new funding proposal.

At this stage, it doesn't matter whether the province or the other city counsellors start doing cartwheels in support of Stinz's plan or not. Her so-called plan is just an early blueprint for the future of transit in TO and anyone with half a brain knows it will need many more studies, revisions and approvals before we reach the stage where they nail down the funding. You make it sound like Stinz is already out there trying to chase down the $20 B which is, to put it mildly, rather disingenuous on your part. Why are you in such a big hurry to dismiss Stinz and her vision?

 

[oldjones]

The point is that someone actually concerned with transit and the city as a whole is trying to get things moving in a coherent overall way, from routes to funding. It's only news because of the vacuum into which it was released. It's really not a lot different from Transit City, or any of the various earlier plans going back to R.C Harris. Remember him? He was the guy who built the railway bridge under the Bloor viaduct, even though the funding for his Commission's overall plan of 1912 dried up. Their radial railway routes (to day we call them LRTs) prefigure most every plan since, they just changed the labels describing them. And frankly, whatever runs on the lines and wherever they're put, we'll use them anyway and complain. So let's just get on with it, raise the tax-money and buy some trackage.

Trouble is, instead of trusting the planners and getting on with it, we keep electing know-nothings who insist on reinventing the wheel, Or who are too in love with their own sloganeering to even begin to do that. At least Karen's got her wheel drawn on paper. Perhaps Rob's waiting for the gravy to dry on his.

 

[Garrett]

Trouble is, instead of trusting the planners and getting on with it, we keep electing know-nothings who insist on reinventing the wheel, Or who are too in love with their own sloganeering to even begin to do that. At least Karen's got her wheel drawn on paper. Perhaps Rob's waiting for the gravy to dry on his.

I do not see how what Stintz has done is much different than sloganeering. She put forth a dream plan with no backing (surprising even her co workers) and had the Toronto Star lined up to keep the propaganda going. I have no problem saying Ford is a poor planner, but what Stintz has done is actually worse.

Before I would trust someone with $30B, I would want them to put their house in order. TTC service sucks now. The token system is a mess. What is the issue with implementing a secure, token less system where riders pay based on usage. I expect they will need a lot more than $30B, and I would even like to see their estimates on costs to manage/service this infrastructure in the event that ridership remains relatively flat.

 

[fuji]

At least Ford took a plan to Council.

I missed that. When did Ford do that? I think you're making it up. Please provide a link to the subway plan that Ford took to council.

 

[fuji]

IWhat is the issue with implementing a secure, token less system where riders pay based on usage. I expect they will need a lot more than $30B, and I would even like to see their estimates on costs to manage/service this infrastructure in the event that ridership remains relatively flat.

I guess you don't actually use the TTC, or you would have seen all those "Presto" readers in all the stations.