Karen Stintz sat flat on her ass.

[Moviefan-2]

Why are you in such a big hurry to dismiss Stintz and her vision?

I think you may have me confused with this guy:

http://www.premier.gov.on.ca/team/meetdalton.php?Lang=EN

 

[Moviefan-2]

This gets more entertaining. According to the Toronto Star, Rob Ford may step in to help get council's approval to study Stintz's plan:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...on-track-after-meeting-with-mayor-s-officials

The same story says Adam Vaughan is trashing the plan.

Meantime, another key left-wing councillor has distanced himself from OneCity. Calling it a “half-baked proposition” with “some really dangerous consequences around tax policy,” Adam Vaughan said he is particularly concerned his downtown ward could be taxed disproportionately because of dramatically rising property values.

“We need to figure out how we pay for city services, the TTC being one of them. If we do it in isolation, it leaves nothing on the table to fix some of the other pressing problems we have,” he said. “How do we finance the city’s needs over the next 20 years? Transit’s a big part of that but it’s not the only part of it.”

I suspect Anbarandy has no idea which side to take at this point.

 

[Polaris]

This gets more entertaining.

You're right. It is hilarious too.

First, they kill off the subway plan of the Mayor.

Next, they revive the subway plan of the Mayor, with the very same person doing it, Stinz the Opportunist.

All at the same time, knowing they don't have any money.

As far as I am concerned, no new taxes, no realty tax increases, and they could do anything they want.

As for the overcrowding on the Yonge subway south of Bloor, well, I got my own problems.

:thumb:

 

[fuji]

The single most important piece of the OneCity plan is the tax. Figuring out where to build subways is easy. Figuring out how to pay for them is hard. You could re-arrange all the lines in the OneCity proposal, scrap some, add others, whatever. But the fundamental thing that Stintz delivered was how to pay for the thing.

Now that tax increase is under attack both by Ford and Vaughan. If the transit tax is removed, then there will be no subway building. Period.

Add back in the tax and the mucky mucks won't have too much trouble figuring out which subways to build.

 

[Butler1000]

Love Vaughn and his NIMBY attitude!

 

[slowpoke]

This gets more entertaining. According to the Toronto Star, Rob Ford may step in to help get council's approval to study Stintz's plan:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...on-track-after-meeting-with-mayor-s-officials

The same story says Adam Vaughan is trashing the plan.



I suspect Anbarandy has no idea which side to take at this point.

So if Stinz takes more than a week to get all the other counsellors to endorse her long-range transit ideas, you immediately conclude that this is "entertaining"? Sorry if I don't share your enthusiasm. So far, I find this transit debate tedious and mildly depressing but I know it's all part of the necessary drill before anything will ever get done. Entertaining?....not so much.

I don't have any particular axe to grind with Stinz and the fact that some of her colleagues have voiced their concerns about certain parts of her plan is really quite normal and predictable. Did anyone really expect this to be so simple that everyone would meekly agree to the whole thing right off the bat? Hardly!! Nobody else has shown any real leadership on transit but Stinz at least had the guts to take the initiative, put her ideas on paper, and maybe get us started on the long and complicated process of building the transit we absolutely must have for the future. I'm just glad someone did something - anything besides the usual jeering, complaining, dreaming and pretending.

 

[oldjones]

And the virtue of her plan, as long as it's on the table is that no one can flim-flam us with any other plan that doesn't have it's funding spelled out.

But then again, Transit City was funded, the City budget was balanced (in surplus actually) and property taxes projected stable for the next one, but we still got flim-flammed into electing Canada's Now Most Famous Mayor on a promise of transit financed by gravy.

To paraphrase Calendar Girls, 'We're going to need considerably smarter voters'.

 

[Anbarandy]

This gets more entertaining. According to the Toronto Star, Rob Ford may step in to help get council's approval to study Stintz's plan:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...on-track-after-meeting-with-mayor-s-officials

The same story says Adam Vaughan is trashing the plan.



I suspect Anbarandy has no idea which side to take at this point.

It's not about taking sides, it's about what is best for the future of the city(transit, water/sewer infrastructure and repair, livability etc)and from what we have experienced in most of the last two years, this definitely excludes our current mayor from the conversation without a doubt. It has become painfully clear that he is nothing but an impediment and obstacle at worst and a nuisance and distraction at best.

What has also become clearer in the last few months is that Adam Vaughan is positioning himself for a run at the mayor's chair. He has ratcheted up his criticism of the mayor in a more vocal and targeted manner and appears to be at the forefront of those opposing the mayor in 2014. His critique of this very early stage of the OneCity Plan takes into consideration the other infrastructure and infrastructure repairs needed to be initiated by the city whilst also positioning himself at the table in any conversations regarding 2014.

Be clear, an overall transit plan for the city stretching out for decades which encompasses funding, planning, viability etc does not start and end with a chant of 'subways, subways, subways', only a mayor's desire for no transit at all does.

Is it just a case of being so dense that the reality of the mayor's promises and fantasies versus reality doesn't filter through to basic cognition? Could it be that the mayor's caveman-like base instincts, grunts and urges somehow resonant thy own? Maybe, it's just pure hillbilly-ish ignorance and golloping golly-ism that prompts the lapping up of the mayor's spittle? Whatever be the case, continuing to believe that the gravy will pay for everything fairy tales emanating from our current mayor is both sad and laughable.

'Look ma, Robbies's cookin', he's cookin' real good now! Wheeze gonna be world class now, world class now!'

 

[Moviefan-2]

Whatever be the case, continuing to believe that the gravy will pay for everything fairy tales emanating from our current mayor is both sad and laughable.

I'm still waiting to hear where the phantom $20 billion in the Stintz plan is coming from.

Meanwhile, Peter Kuitenbrouwer of the National Post says, "OneCity is basically drawn with crayons and will probably die":

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...lly-drawn-with-crayons-and-will-probably-die/

But as details emerged it appeared that while Ms. Stintz and her unlikely new BFF, Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, derived a great deal of merriment from busting out a box of Ms. Stintz’s childrens’ crayons, to draw a new transit map, they had not done much of their homework.

They had not consulted Rob Ford (still the mayor, last I checked), and who likely would have been on board with at least the OneCity plan to convert the Scarborough Rapid Transit line to a subway. They had not consulted Bob Chiarelli, the provincial minister of transportation, nor Denis Lebel, the federal minister of transport. Nor had they talked to Metrolinx, the neutered but still titular leader of transit expansion in greater Toronto.

Mr. De Baeremaeker insisted to reporters at City Hall Thursday that he thinks OneCity can survive a vote at council next week.

“We think we will have the votes,” he said. “We think we will have a transit plan for the city of Toronto built and endorsed by city council.” Asked why he didn’t consult, he said, “I can’t show you my apple pie before it’s out of the oven. Now that this apple pie, this transit plan is out of the oven and it’s full, now we have something to talk about.”

Do we get ice cream with that? Come on, Glenn, let’s face it: OneCity is dead.

 

[Anbarandy]

I'm still waiting to hear where the phantom $20 billion in the Stintz plan is coming from.

Meanwhile, Peter Kuitenbrouwer of the National Post says, "OneCity is basically drawn with crayons and will probably die":

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...lly-drawn-with-crayons-and-will-probably-die/

Better crayons than gravy splotches.

 

[Butler1000]

Unfortunately any tax hikes will end up in the general coffers. Then the horse trading begins with the downtown wards who will want their share. Or no vote will be given. Do you really think anyone living downtown with the high property taxes will want to fund transit for other wards for the next 20 years?
Ask Adam Vaughn

 

[Anbarandy]

Unfortunately any tax hikes will end up in the general coffers. Then the horse trading begins with the downtown wards who will want their share. Or no vote will be given. Do you really think anyone living downtown with the high property taxes will want to fund transit for other wards for the next 20 years?
Ask Adam Vaughn

Well the current mayor ensured that the 'suburbs' got half of the Transit City funding and much more than half of the rapid transit lines. Thank you mr. mayor.

And as the polls have indicated Torontonians support funding for transit and yes.....even for the suburbs.

Are you smarter than the mayor question #1:

What causes more road congestion and clogging up our roadways?:

1) A single LRT carrrying 100's of otherwise road clogging drivers or,
2) 100's of road clogging driver's.


Are you smarter than the mayor question#2:

What sources will fund transit expansion?:

1) Vats of gravy
2) Phantom property developers
3) Placards, slogans and chantings
4) Sources of taxation.

 

[Butler1000]

Not disagreeing with the concept. But the downtown wards will bitch. Their councillors will bitch. They will want compensation. That's politics. Its why the council is so disfunctional now.
The money won't just be used for suburban transit. Vaughn said as much. The rest will follow suit. More wasted.
Until the money comes from both the feds and the province. And turned over to metrolinx I won't believe it till then.

 

[Butler1000]

Face it. NO ONE has a decent plan. I think its time to take the whole thing away from this council. Turn it over to metrolinx. Complete intergration. The present players have too much to win and lose politically to get together. And that is ALL parties!

 

[Garrett]

I guess you don't actually use the TTC, or you would have seen all those "Presto" readers in all the stations.

First, they are not in all the stations (only 20%). Second, it is still a flat fare system. The gap still stands. They want $30B and additional taxes but cannot even get fare collection right.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Royson James at the Toronto Star isn't happy with the way the Stintz plan is falling apart:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...city-transit-plan-being-sidelined-by-politics

It's amusing to see James complaining about the politics involved, since the plan has always emphasized politics over good planning.

 

[oldjones]

First, they are not in all the stations (only 20%). Second, it is still a flat fare system. The gap still stands. They want $30B and additional taxes but cannot even get fare collection right.

Actually the TTC had zoned fare-by-distance decades ago. Suburbanites complained it kept them from using transit, and was 'unfair' because they paid the same taxes as everyone else. It wasn't their fault they 'had' to live where they did. So the flat-fare was broadened to get them on the TTC.

Rather than 'penalize' these folks for leaving the car at home we should be figuring out a way to reward and encourage them. We used to let them park free at TTC lots until they got too jammed up, and now the lots are another income source for the Commish, and the 'burbanites moan they're more than the cost of driving all the way.

 

[groggy]

The star has an article out today showing the decline of the middle class in Toronto since the '70's. Notable is the spread, with the rich folks all along the subway lines and the poor now in transit starved outer areas and burbs. Ford played the poor as suckers in his 'war against the car' and gravy boating. Voting him in works against their interests since they'll have less services and transit and have any changes in real estate taxes balanced by increases in service fees.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1223391--tackling-the-income-gap-in-canadian-cities

 

[Possum Trot]

The star has an article out today showing the decline of the middle class in Toronto since the '70's. Notable is the spread, with the rich folks all along the subway lines and the poor now in transit starved outer areas and burbs. Ford played the poor as suckers in his 'war against the car' and gravy boating. Voting him in works against their interests since they'll have less services and transit and have any changes in real estate taxes balanced by increases in service fees.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1223391--tackling-the-income-gap-in-canadian-cities

groggy reread what you posted as it would appear that on the one hand you say that the rich live on subway routes(and presumeably don't need to rely on cars) and the poor in the burs. In the next sentence you appear bash Ford for his war against the car. I'm a 905'er but it seems to me that it was the Ford opponents that declared war on the car.

What point are you trying to make as you have me groggy now.

 

[fmahovalich]

Stintz is at it again!

Today she took the tax hike off the table...noting the funding issues and questions can be placed aside..while council votes on one city plan!

Is she fucking NUTS!