Just a Reminder that Agencies Aren’t Legal

[Ping]

Boy this subject really came off the rails. I think people need to recognize this is why SP's tend to move around agency's so much... because theres no protecting them with the labour rules. Also this is probably why Indy's become indys.
Not everyone wants to go out for dinner at the Mandrin, some people find small restaurants where better food is served and is made to order... some elitists can afford their own private chef. Thats no reason to argue.
I think the driving force behind agencies is that indy's need to ask for credentials for their own security. Unfortunately all these money transfers and government ID's people need to provide are traceable FOR EVER. So unless your ok with being contacted and flagged years after seeing a particular client, or host then you're stuck with agencies... thats just how it is. And your info will be added to a data base that flags you every time you deal with police from that point forward whether either is charged or convicted... Google NicheRMS. Someone needs to develop a verification process where nobody permanently retains the others details... like a reference number that verifies a person's credentials, but is held for a week or so, then is reused like a rolling code. The only thing is that it would need to be used for more than just escorts, it would need to be used for things like Facebook marketplace and kijiji so that simply being on that verifies list wouldn't infer you are an SP or an consumer of services.

 

[Haggy64]

Bingo, now we’re getting somewhere. Next question, who deems whether someone is an employee or an independent contractor? I mean, can I just open a Tim Hortons and sign all the workers as independent contractors?

Exactly… I feel the argument that many agencies would make if they were taken to task regarding labour code violations is that they are simply connecting clients with providers and supplying qaccommodations for a fee. Theoretically for an employer/employee relationship to exist, the employer sets the working hours, rate of pay, what is expected of the employee, etc. , and in turn pays the employee an agreed upon wage. If the agency follows the model whereby they dictate hours, rates, conditions, collect fees from the clients, and in turn pay the SP, I think it could be argued there is employee/employer relationship. If the agency adopts the model whereby they allow the SP to choose their own hours, rates, decide on the services they provide while providing scheduling, advertising and accommodation, have the SP collect fees from the client and charge the SP a fee or percentage for their services, I think you’d have a hard time arguing the employee/employer relationship exists…I feel like both types of agencies exist, which was my point earlier in this thread. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what your experience has been with agencies.. Do you sign a contract? Can you dictate your own hours and services? Who collects fees?

Also, if there is a true employer/employee relationship, you get into whether WSIB, vacation pay, benefits etc., should be provided. If agencies were mandated to provide all of this I have to think the percentage they retain would have to increase to cover costs. All this, coupled with the reluctance of SPs to pursue legal action against their agency because of the nature of the industry makes to very hard to regulate.

I’m not suggesting for a second that there are not agencies out there who mistreat their SPs. Only that there are some well run and respectable ones as well.

 

[@madelineklaire]

Boy this subject really came off the rails. I think people need to recognize this is why SP's tend to move around agency's so much... because theres no protecting them with the labour rules. Also this is probably why Indy's become indys.
Not everyone wants to go out for dinner at the Mandrin, some people find small restaurants where better food is served and is made to order... some elitists can afford their own private chef. Thats no reason to argue.
I think the driving force behind agencies is that indy's need to ask for credentials for their own security. Unfortunately all these money transfers and government ID's people need to provide are traceable FOR EVER. So unless your ok with being contacted and flagged years after seeing a particular client, or host then you're stuck with agencies... thats just how it is. And your info will be added to a data base that flags you every time you deal with police from that point forward whether either is charged or convicted... Google NicheRMS. Someone needs to develop a verification process where nobody permanently retains the others details... like a reference number that verifies a person's credentials, but is held for a week or so, then is reused like a rolling code. The only thing is that it would need to be used for more than just escorts, it would need to be used for things like Facebook marketplace and kijiji so that simply being on that verifies list wouldn't infer you are an SP or an consumer of services.

Trust me, a lot of us see what’s happening from both sides. Providers end up leaning on agencies for safety, space, and reliable bookings, but that often means losing autonomy, income, and control. Clients feel it too: having to navigate screening, risk, scams, and inconsistent experiences while trying to find something safe and worthwhile.

The answer isn’t forcing rates down or pushing everyone into agencies. It’s building infrastructure that protects safety, respects autonomy, and makes it easier for good clients to connect with trustworthy providers without everyone feeling exposed or exploited.

Change is overdue, and some of us are working toward solutions that work better for both sides. Hopefully there will be something concrete to show for it soon.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Ah the old agencies vs Indies debate. I didn't want to chim in (yet) the other day cause i was away and only had my phone and i type so slow on this. Today i am on my PC so lets go...

I been in this business for around 16 years (2009). Go look me on Merb if you want (same name). So i fancy myself a veteran now as i am older (and been in the business) longer than most SPs who work now. I also was a booker for a VERY short stint.. It was not for me, for many reasons and i can develop on that and tell you its not all nice and dandy and i had to deal with drunk SPs who were unhappy of their days/clients, including but not limited to, being insulted profusely because she didn't had enough call in a day, or a client was not to her liking, and so on.... I was only the booker, not the driver. If a client was problematic it was the driver job to fix it (lots of bookings were dealt by text and were often straight to the point so its not like i could do intensive screening). Anyway i just included it because my short stint made me respect a lot more the booker's work in agencies as a client (i was a client before the booking thing and stayed a client after). I dealt with weird clients, escorts humors, i had to be available for long shifts, i was working 4 days in a row barely sleeping because i was answering clients at 10 am when lined open and our last calls were around 2am.... Once last call was done not always but sometimes i had to collect from drivers/escorts not to mention it was finally my "cooling down moment" but then 9 am i woke up, showered, already had a bunch of text "waiting" .. It was not the glamour/cool work project i expected from what i saw before (i was able to chill with an agency owner once and it was very different).

Anyway. So yeah i do respect the peoples behind who made the magic happen for us clients.

Also, i spoke to enough SPs and saw enough as a client to understand one thing. Agencies can serve 2 roles. Some SPs start in agencies and make a name for themselves. Giving you an exemple i saw an SP actually yesterday that i first saw in an agency. Her base rate was 260 or around that. I paid a few extras wich cost me around 100$ more for a total of around 340 or 360, can't remember exactly but 300 something. Yesterday i saw her as an indy for 600. 500 base + 100 extras. Almost doubles right? Did i cared? NO. I liked her and wanted to see her again. I was willing to pay the indy rate. She "won my business" in the agency first. Lots of escorts goes that route. Start in agencies, become "superstars" and then become indies at super higher prices. Heck i saw Sonia Von Sacher (yes THE Sonia wich you heard of) in an agency for 350$. Now she charge like a 1000$ or something. Good for her ! Im not gonna see her again at that rate because its out of my budget. But she became a superstar, got big in the business, get booked months in advance, im happy for her ! She deserve what she have now. Heck some services she used to offer back then when i saw her i don't even think she does anymore at triple the rate lol. But again, its because clients know her, she worked for that recognition.

The other agencies escorts are the ones who simply just want to show up for work and do not care for all the fluff. Be it answer text, promote themselves (website, ads etc), drive themselves or rent an incall. Again i saw an agency girl twice in recent years wich been around for YEARS. She is a superstar and has no booking issues. She CHOOSE to stat in agencies because she like just telling the agency wich day she want to work and have NOTHING else to worry about beside showing at the incall that day. She know the agency has regulars who trust said agency and will simply see escorts from that agency because they know its safe and then she also have her regulars who want to see her and just pass by the agency. Sure she pay a cut to the agency. But heck the same happen for talent agencies in porn or even mainstream movies. What is an hockey agent if not somebody that will deal the contract for you?

Im not saying its impossible for an indy to start as indy right away at premium and not have it work. Maybe she is willing to go face out, maybe she has social medias skills to capture clients, maybe she is simply so hot clients will book her for look. Who knows? Its possible. But the VAST majority of the escorts who now charge 500-600h as indy? Either they worked in agencies or parlors before and built a reputation or they had a something that drawn clients.

Myself as a client i am much more frisky at booking an indy at 600h that i never saw. I will sometimes do it but because reviews, reputation, social media presence etc. I could see someone as hot as my hollywood celebrity crush advertise as an indy with nothing but a few pics and i would pass because im not willing to take a risk. Im sure lots of clients are the same. At least not a 500-600.

Will i sometimes take a risk for an agency lady at 260? Yes. Heck you know what i do usually? I book the unknown agency lady at like 4pm for 1h, and if it turn out terrible i usually have another meeting in the evening with a known provider (or heavily reviewed) so i know my day will be cool anyway. On ocasions i got gems with that first meeting, on others it wasn't great ... but i took a risk, it was a gamble, i was at peace with myself to "lose that 260". If it had been 600 tough... yeah nah...

Im a mid class guy basically, heck maybe even under. Im not gonna say in what i work but i barely make more than a Mcdo employee ... You get the picture. I save to meet SPs ! Every $ is important.

Its easy for a guy who makes 250k a year to see SPs at the higher prices. 600$/h for 3h? No problem there. And good for the indy who built her reputation and craft to be able to be that one that this guy is gonna meet. But i think its cool that a more "casual guy" like me can also get some tender moments with SPs... And i don't have to go roam the street to find an SP that will sleep with me... No instead i can book someone from a reputated agency and have a great time and YES IN AN ETHICAL WAY as well. And im sure the SPs who go online and find the agency in question are much more happy to work in a cozy incall in a safe environement rather than jump in a car with a stranger like in 1991.

I will always defend agencies and praise them for what they offer to both the SPs and the clients.

I hope you all got my point of view. Sorry if my grammar is bad or such, english is not my first language. And yes its a wall of text. But all of this came from the heart.

 

[Ping]

Great replies.

 

[Hughlongly]

So first off i don't care. English is not my first language. Don't like? Don't read ! Second what are you even talking about? Owning what? Who's talking of owning anything? Creeping pages? Huh?

I didn't attack anyone for a start i just said sometimes we (as humanbeings) are too fast at judging peoples before they been properly judged.

I saw this news on a Friday night at 2am and i was just holding my judgement until i saw more.

I remember this whole "Don White Associates" thing and i simply can't remember it taking off. Maybe in this story Bianca "took the fall" for this Don White guy. I dunno really. Story still so new.

I can think of 4 SPs (or for one, a former SP) right away that i either seen myself or plan to see one day that are friends with her (and did Duos with her) so yeah its strange to say the least.

It's not strange at all. She's BEEN charged before. She has a lengthy criminal record. That's the thing you don't seem to understand. She's a CRIMINAL. She isn't taking the fall for anyone. You're ASSUMING she's friends with other SP's. SP's can work together and NOT be friends. Many many are NOT friends. They just work with people. Are you friends with everyone at work? No? There you go.

 

[Hughlongly]

Technically in Canada it’s illegal to pay for sexual services, whether the person is independent or works through an agency. But for most people it’s not about whether a client can or can’t book. it’s about what that choice ends up supporting. When you book through an agency, you’re often supporting a structure that takes control away from providers, dictates rates and services, and pushes the industry to be more consumer-driven and transactional. If clients want the scene to stay safe, high-quality, and sustainable, it helps to think about whether the places they’re spending money are empowering the people doing the work or boxing them in.

Yes, Madeline, you are correct. The law you’re referring to was passed under Stephen Harper’s government in 2014 as the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act (PCEPA). Prior to 2014, Prostitution itself wasn’t illegal but many of the surrounding activities were illegal: brothels, pimping, and public solicitation. Both buying and selling sex were technically not criminalized, though enforcement focused on brothels and public solicitation. Most of the act focus's on the purchaser of sex following the 'nordic model'. It's horse shit. It is, in a large part, why street prostitution has essentially disappeared. The act put providers at great risk of harm as they could not hire security or even drivers legally as they would be 'living off the avails of prostitution'. It's legislation was designed by religious fundamentalists determined to return to puritan values and were/are zealously attempting to force their own values on the rest of society. The irony of modern day religious types, is that their parent church (the Catholic Church) owned, operated and was fully in favor of brothels during the medieval period in most of the western world as they recognized the value of sexual release.

 

[Halloween Mike]

You're ASSUMING she's friends with other SP's. SP's can work together and NOT be friends. Many many are NOT friends. They just work with people. Are you friends with everyone at work? No? There you go.

Do you attend your coworkers birthdays...baby showers etc?

I think i know a little more than you on that. You may wanna sidestep on that sir if you don't know what you talking about.

 

[ArgoHater]

The irony of modern day religious types, is that their parent church (the Catholic Church) owned, operated and was fully in favor of brothels during the medieval period in most of the western world as they recognized the value of sexual release.

I would say that they realized the PROFITS of those brothels, as well as the potential for blackmail, extortion, and espionage of the clients.

 

[Theredmilf]

Exactly… I feel the argument that many agencies would make if they were taken to task regarding labour code violations is that they are simply connecting clients with providers and supplying qaccommodations for a fee. Theoretically for an employer/employee relationship to exist, the employer sets the working hours, rate of pay, what is expected of the employee, etc. , and in turn pays the employee an agreed upon wage. If the agency follows the model whereby they dictate hours, rates, conditions, collect fees from the clients, and in turn pay the SP, I think it could be argued there is employee/employer relationship. If the agency adopts the model whereby they allow the SP to choose their own hours, rates, decide on the services they provide while providing scheduling, advertising and accommodation, have the SP collect fees from the client and charge the SP a fee or percentage for their services, I think you’d have a hard time arguing the employee/employer relationship exists…I feel like both types of agencies exist, which was my point earlier in this thread. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what your experience has been with agencies.. Do you sign a contract? Can you dictate your own hours and services? Who collects fees?

Also, if there is a true employer/employee relationship, you get into whether WSIB, vacation pay, benefits etc., should be provided. If agencies were mandated to provide all of this I have to think the percentage they retain would have to increase to cover costs. All this, coupled with the reluctance of SPs to pursue legal action against their agency because of the nature of the industry makes to very hard to regulate.

I’m not suggesting for a second that there are not agencies out there who mistreat their SPs. Only that there are some well run and respectable ones as well.

Not quite, if it were this simple all employers could get away with evading responsibility by not paying wages or other benefits and arranging payment terms so that the tail wags the dog. It’s actually the other way around, the onus is on the business to demonstrate their labourers are truly independent contractors.

“Ontario's government, through the 2017 passage of Bill 148, significantly altered the classification of workers, establishing a "reverse onus" that placed the burden on employers to prove a worker is an independent contractor, not an employee. This meant that after its 2017 implementation, if an employee's status was challenged, the employer had to provide evidence that the individual was indeed an independent contractor, rather than the worker proving they were an employee.”

Employee or Independent Contractor? The Effect of Bill 148 | Employment & Human Rights Law in Canada

Employees are generally determined by a four fold test:

1. Degree of control dictating how, when, and where the work is done. An independent contractor has significant autonomy, they don’t have shifts for example. A contractor can sub in others to complete their work and cannot be fired.
2. Ownership of Tools and Equipment.
3. Chance of Profit and Risk of Loss. An employee is more economically dependent to the business, whereas an independent contractor receives revenues from a variety of sources.
4. Integration: The worker's role is integral to the employer's business and often involves being part of the business's core operations. Whereas a contractor merely provides a service to the business.

No single factor determines this but by weighing all the factors to get a picture of whether the worker is in overall subordinate position to the employer.

It’s very easy to see who is an independent contractor versus an employee in the construction industry. If I’m a plumber running my own business, I have dozens, maybe even hundreds of clients which I source and choose myself. I bring my own tools to the job and I am paid for a service. I can decide what my schedule is to complete my contracts and I can sub in other individuals to complete the work. Most notably, I cannot be fired, I am not trained by those who contract me, and I decide how to carry out the work. Conversely, if I am a plumber working for an employer, I go to a job site designated by my employer, work mainly under their umbrella, for clients they source and am supplied the critical tools. I may be trained, can be hired and fired, have shifts or hours etc. I am in a subordinate and dependent relationship with my employer.

There are numerous cases where the government has found misclassification, for example, drivers, gig and construction workers, and in the arts. Workers rights form an important pillar of human rights in this country. And so you can’t just get cute with how you design your business to try to evade the responsibilities of an employer. Imagine the total erosion of rights that would take place were all sectors allowed to avoid being employers by simply calling the individuals they hire independent contractors.

 

[Haggy64]

Not quite, if it were this simple all employers could get away with evading responsibility by not paying wages or other benefits and arranging payment terms so that the tail wags the dog. It’s actually the other way around, the onus is on the business to demonstrate their labourers are truly independent contractors.

“Ontario's government, through the 2017 passage of Bill 148, significantly altered the classification of workers, establishing a "reverse onus" that placed the burden on employers to prove a worker is an independent contractor, not an employee. This meant that after its 2017 implementation, if an employee's status was challenged, the employer had to provide evidence that the individual was indeed an independent contractor, rather than the worker proving they were an employee.”

Employee or Independent Contractor? The Effect of Bill 148 | Employment & Human Rights Law in Canada

Employees are generally determined by a four fold test:

1. Degree of control dictating how, when, and where the work is done. An independent contractor has significant autonomy, they don’t have shifts for example. A contractor can sub in others to complete their work and cannot be hired nor fired.
2. Ownership of Tools and Equipment.
3. Chance of Profit and Risk of Loss. An employee is more economically dependent to the business, whereas an independent contractor receives revenues from a variety of sources.
4. Integration: The worker's role is integral to the employer's business and often involves being part of the business's core operations. Whereas a contractor merely provides a service to the business.

No single factor determines this but by weighing all the factors to get a picture of whether the worker is in overall subordinate position to the employer.

It’s very easy to see who is an independent contractor versus an employee in the construction industry. If I’m a plumber running my own business, I have dozens, maybe even hundreds of clients which I source and choose myself. I bring my own tools to the job and I am paid for a service. I can decide what my schedule is to complete my contracts and I can sub in other individuals to complete the work. Most notably, I cannot be hired nor fired, I am not trained by those who contract me, and I decide how to carry out the work. Conversely, if I am a plumber working for an employer, I go to a job site designated by my employer, work mainly under their umbrella, for clients they source and am supplied the critical tools. I may be trained, can be hired and fired, have shifts or hours etc. I am in a subordinate and dependency relationship with my employer.

There are numerous cases where the government has found misclassification, for example, drivers, gig and construction workers, and in the arts. Workers rights form an important pillar of human rights in this country. And so you can’t just get cute with how you design your business to try to evade the responsibilities of an employer. Imagine the total erosion of rights that would take place were all sectors allowed to avoid being employers by simply calling the individuals they hire independent contractors.

Well stated! Thanks for the detailed analysis. Next question… to your knowledge have there been legal challenges to the conventional agency model? I feel like because of the nature of the business people like yourself are hesitant to pursue that(?) I just did a quick AI search and came up with the following:

“While specific cases of lawsuits against escort agencies for labor code violations aren't detailed, general information suggests such cases are rare due to Canada's sex work laws, which place sex workers in a legally ambiguous position rather than recognizing them as employees, thus preventing application of labor codes. Recent successes in small claims courts by sex workers against clients for non-payment, however, demonstrate an emerging recognition of sex work as a form of work that can involve contractual obligations, potentially opening doors for future labor-related claims against agencies if the legal framework evolves”