Just a Reminder that Agencies Aren’t Legal

[value_hunter]

I'm a little confused by the thread title - "Just a Reminder that Agencies Aren't Legal"

Is it legal for me to see an independent?

(I have nothing against independents, I respect the risk that they take on and I see them frequently).

 

[TheRiddlerMan]

I'm a little confused by the thread title - "Just a Reminder that Agencies Aren't Legal"

Is it legal for me to see an independent?

(I have nothing against independents, I respect the risk that they take on and I see them frequently).

That's not a client reference, it's to anyone running an agency or brothel. Those people can be charged with receiving a material benefit from sexual services. It's why some spas bill themselves as private clubs.

As a client, you're liable in either case.

 

[@madelineklaire]

So what exactly is legal in a body rub parlor and what can get an owner or client in legal trouble.

From what I understand, technically in Canada third parties aren’t supposed to profit from someone else’s sexual services (that’s the “material benefit” part of the Criminal Code). The reason body rub parlours can operate is because they’re licensed as adult massage/erotic massage and are only supposed to be offering manual release no oral or intercourse.

Once it moves into full service (oral, vaginal, etc.) it’s a lot more risky under the material benefit law. That’s why most places advertise just massage and keep anything beyond that completely off their menu.

 

[@madelineklaire]

I'm a little confused by the thread title - "Just a Reminder that Agencies Aren't Legal"

Is it legal for me to see an independent?

(I have nothing against independents, I respect the risk that they take on and I see them frequently).

Technically in Canada it’s illegal to pay for sexual services, whether the person is independent or works through an agency. But for most people it’s not about whether a client can or can’t book. it’s about what that choice ends up supporting. When you book through an agency, you’re often supporting a structure that takes control away from providers, dictates rates and services, and pushes the industry to be more consumer-driven and transactional. If clients want the scene to stay safe, high-quality, and sustainable, it helps to think about whether the places they’re spending money are empowering the people doing the work or boxing them in.

 

[@madelineklaire]

Agency’s are a good thing when indy’s simply goes bonkers with their rates. Generally good agencies kind of limits how much an indy can charge .

if there are 10/10 ladies witg different backgrounds, different looks for much MUCH cheaper, I wont see a indy.

I get this line of work hard, I get it. I cannot fathom some of the horror stories some of the indy’s go through.


However, I dont care how you look like or how you act like, nobody is worth 800-1000 per hour range. I mean in the sincerest way possible. If you can charge and get on with it, you go girl, more power to you, best of success in your life, but if ottawa had good agencies, not the pimps that they call themself “agencies” for asian ladies, the average price of the ladies will be much lower.

500 is what a girl charges in 250 in montreal. We need more agencies.

You’re absolutely entitled to decide what you personally want to spend, but it isn’t your place to decide what someone else “should” charge. A provider’s rate is hers to set based on the work she puts in, the boundaries she keeps, and the value she wants to place on her time. If clients pay it, then it’s clearly worth it to them, whether or not it fits your budget .

Saying “nobody is worth 800–1000” isn’t a fact about the market, it’s just your own price ceiling. Plenty of clients disagree and happily pay higher rates for safety, discretion, a consistent experience, and to support someone running her own business.

Agencies don’t exist to make pricing “reasonable.” They exist to take a cut, standardize services, and package things in a way that’s easier to sell. That might be convenient for some, but it doesn’t make independent rates invalid or wrong. If a provider wants to set her own value and keep control of her work, that’s her right whether it’s in your range or not.

 

[Thalrend]

You’re absolutely entitled to decide what you personally want to spend, but it isn’t your place to decide what someone else “should” charge. A provider’s rate is hers to set based on the work she puts in, the boundaries she keeps, and the value she wants to place on her time. If clients pay it, then it’s clearly worth it to them, whether or not it fits your budget .

Saying “nobody is worth 800–1000” isn’t a fact about the market, it’s just your own price ceiling. Plenty of clients disagree and happily pay higher rates for safety, discretion, a consistent experience, and to support someone running her own business.

Agencies don’t exist to make pricing “reasonable.” They exist to take a cut, standardize services, and package things in a way that’s easier to sell. That might be convenient for some, but it doesn’t make independent rates invalid or wrong. If a provider wants to set her own value and keep control of her work, that’s her right whether it’s in your range or not.

As every business, this business also about supply and demand, as far as i hate to say it. Generally, the high end indy provider’s are safer yes, but lets be honest , most providers charge what they can get away with. If a provider can charge double her rates they will. Its about who is willing to pay what.

Price ceiling of people gets higher or lower depeding on the local indy’s and agencies rates. I guarentee you, if they were montreal agencies in ottawa with same prices and same quality of ladies, most of the indy’s in ottawa will get a hit in their business.

Most people increase their price ceiling when there is no good options. Thats what agencies for, options. Ottawa has no options what so ever compared to toronto or montreal.

 

[@madelineklaire]

As every business, this business also about supply and demand, as far as i hate to say it. Generally, the high end indy provider’s are safer yes, but lets be honest , most providers charge what they can get away with. If a provider can charge double her rates they will. Its about who is willing to pay what.

Price ceiling of people gets higher or lower depeding on the local indy’s and agencies rates. I guarentee you, if they were montreal agencies in ottawa with same prices and same quality of ladies, most of the indy’s in ottawa will get a hit in their business.

Most people increase their price ceiling when there is no good options. Thats what agencies for, options. Ottawa has no options what so ever compared to toronto or montreal.

I’ve tried to keep this constructive, but we’re just circling. Rates will never be standardized because autonomy isn’t negotiable. Providers decide what keeps their work safe, sustainable, and worth it.

If someone’s price doesn’t work for you, that doesn’t make it wrong, it just means they’re not for you. Ottawa already offers plenty of options. The industry doesn’t owe you conformity or a discount.

Your budget is your boundary, not ours.

 

[Thalrend]

Nothing you said changes anything i said when it comes to agencies. Then again, indy providers not liking agencies is a story as long as the battle between the farmers and the rocks in their fields.

 

[roddermac]

From what I understand, technically in Canada third parties aren’t supposed to profit from someone else’s sexual services (that’s the “material benefit” part of the Criminal Code). The reason body rub parlours can operate is because they’re licensed as adult massage/erotic massage and are only supposed to be offering manual release no oral or intercourse.

Once it moves into full service (oral, vaginal, etc.) it’s a lot more risky under the material benefit law. That’s why most places advertise just massage and keep anything beyond that completely off their menu.

So the HE and some titty play is okay then by law.

 

[marshman]

Nothing you said changes anything i said when it comes to agencies. Then again, indy providers not liking agencies is a story as long as the battle between the farmers and the rocks in their fields.

I think you & Maddy have reached the “Agree to Disagree” point in this discussion. You view these services as a simplistic commodity whose prices fluctuate based solely on supply & demand. Maddy (who is invested in and understands this area from inside) knows that it’s not that simple.

As a friend once said to me after an energetic debate, “I’d agree with you but then we’d both be wrong”

 

[lunaseraphim]

I'm a little confused by the thread title - "Just a Reminder that Agencies Aren't Legal"

Is it legal for me to see an independent?

(I have nothing against independents, I respect the risk that they take on and I see them frequently).

No, it's not, but I think that's not super relevant.. I think the point of the thread was more to make clients think about the working conditions of the SP they see, more than remind clients what is legal or not, although I'm not OP. I know agencies and spas exist for reasons, a lot of girls don't have the energy or skills to work independently and when someone begins in the industry it may be easier to work for an employer.. However not all of these establishments are the same, there are a lot of things that happen behind closed doors that I hear about from colleagues.. It's not easy to see several clients in a row, for a low rate. I do not judge clients who choose to go to see SP from agencies, but it's all in the way you treat them and understand their working environment and how certain things may be difficult.

 

[Theredmilf]

You’re absolutely entitled to decide what you personally want to spend, but it isn’t your place to decide what someone else “should” charge. A provider’s rate is hers to set based on the work she puts in, the boundaries she keeps, and the value she wants to place on her time. If clients pay it, then it’s clearly worth it to them, whether or not it fits your budget .

Saying “nobody is worth 800–1000” isn’t a fact about the market, it’s just your own price ceiling. Plenty of clients disagree and happily pay higher rates for safety, discretion, a consistent experience, and to support someone running her own business.

Agencies don’t exist to make pricing “reasonable.” They exist to take a cut, standardize services, and package things in a way that’s easier to sell. That might be convenient for some, but it doesn’t make independent rates invalid or wrong. If a provider wants to set her own value and keep control of her work, that’s her right whether it’s in your range or not.

Yes, exactly. And I wanted to add that setting a provider’s rates or even encouraging a certain rate is coercive control. Further, if I as an agency owner encourage someone to put their rate at say 300 so that they can see many more clients at my location and I am receiving fees for all the clients, I am now receiving a material benefit from their sex work.

 

[Haggy64]

Well, do you observe any application of the labour code? I think we’re all familiar with what this is from civilian work. Do you see it being applied anywhere within sex workers’ workplaces? Do you see any harassment policies? Do you see any workers rights whatsoever?

Clearly this is very personal for you and this is very palpable in your posts. I was just clarifying your position. I do not profess to know anything about the Bianca et al situation so I cannot comment on that. I was just surprised,in general, about your demonization of agencies. I am very familiar with the labour code but I have no first hand knowledge of working with or for these organizations, only what has been conveyed to me by SPs. Several have communicated that they find the agency they work for fair, and they don’t feel mistreated, exploited or unsafe, so your opinions and experiences are not unanimous across the industry.. I divulged the reasons why I now prefer agencies over independents. This is your opportunity to educate us as to how agencies conduct themselves. How and what do they do or not do that exploits you, puts you in danger, treats you unfairly etc. And do all agencies operate this way?. No exceptions? How do you know this? As a client, I would genuinely like to know more about your experiences with agencies. Perhaps if we were provided with credible specifics we could make a decision whether or not to use agencies based on that. I’m not attacking you or disputing what you’re saying. You just haven’t provided much in the way of specifics and have made some generalizations that don’t seem to be aligned with all SPs. I am sympathetic to whatever experiences may have transpired in the past which have caused you to be so abrupt and accusatory. Enlighten us so that we may make educated decisions.

 

[Theredmilf]

Clearly this is very personal for you and this is very palpable in your posts. I was just clarifying your position. I do not profess to know anything about the Bianca et al situation so I cannot comment on that. I was just surprised,in general, about your demonization of agencies. I am very familiar with the labour code but I have no first hand knowledge of working with or for these organizations, only what has been conveyed to me by SPs. Several have communicated that they find the agency they work for fair, and they don’t feel mistreated, exploited or unsafe, so your opinions and experiences are not unanimous across the industry.. I divulged the reasons why I now prefer agencies over independents. This is your opportunity to educate us as to how agencies conduct themselves. How and what do they do or not do that exploits you, puts you in danger, treats you unfairly etc. And do all agencies operate this way?. No exceptions? How do you know this? As a client, I would genuinely like to know more about your experiences with agencies. Perhaps if we were provided with credible specifics we could make a decision whether or not to use agencies based on that. I’m not attacking you or disputing what you’re saying. You just haven’t provided much in the way of specifics and have made some generalizations that don’t seem to be aligned with all SPs. I am sympathetic to whatever experiences may have transpired in the past which have caused you to be so abrupt and accusatory. Enlighten us so that we may make educated decisions.

I don’t have a problem with your personal choices and absolutely understand that agencies are filling void and that providers are making the decision that’s best for them.

But my point is very simple. If you are familiar with the labour code, I’m sure you can tell me whether it’s being applied. Would you agree that the labour code is precisely what spells out what are fair working conditions? I mean, fairness in the workplace is not a vibe. It is a specific set of rights and conditions conferred to all workers.

 

[Haggy64]

I don’t have a problem with your personal choices and absolutely understand that agencies are filling void and that providers are making the decision that’s best for them.

But my point is very simple. If you are familiar with the labour code, I’m sure you can tell me whether it’s being applied. Would you agree that the labour code is precisely what spells out what are fair working conditions? I mean, fairness in the workplace is not a vibe. It is a specific set of rights and conditions conferred to all workers.

Fair.. I guess the question is whether the SPs are actually considered employees and the agencies employers. Or is the relationship between SPs and Agencies more along the lines of a contract or agreement. I honestly don’t know but I always thought it was more the latter, in which case the labour code would not apply.(?)Also there is a Federal and provincial labour code. Which applies to the SP/Agency relationship or do either?


FYI, here is the link to the labour code for those who would like to read further

Canada Labour Code

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

 

[Theredmilf]

Fair.. I guess the question is whether the SPs are actually considered employees and the agencies employers. Or is the relationship between SPs and Avencies more along the lines of a contract or agreement. I honestly don’t know but I always thought it was more the latter, in which case the labour code would not apply.(?)Also there is a Federal and provincial labour code. Which applies to the SP/Agency relationship or do either?


FYI, here is the link to the labour code for those who would like to read further

Canada Labour Code

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

Bingo, now we’re getting somewhere. Next question, who deems whether someone is an employee or an independent contractor? I mean, can I just open a Tim Hortons and sign all the workers as independent contractors?

 

[Ping]

Boy this subject really came off the rails. I think people need to recognize this is why SP's tend to move around agency's so much... because theres no protecting them with the labour rules. Also this is probably why Indy's become indys.
Not everyone wants to go out for dinner at the Mandrin, some people find small restaurants where better food is served and is made to order... some elitists can afford their own private chef. Thats no reason to argue.
I think the driving force behind agencies is that indy's need to ask for credentials for their own security. Unfortunately all these money transfers and government ID's people need to provide are traceable FOR EVER. So unless your ok with being contacted and flagged years after seeing a particular client, or host then you're stuck with agencies... thats just how it is. And your info will be added to a data base that flags you every time you deal with police from that point forward whether either is charged or convicted... Google NicheRMS. Someone needs to develop a verification process where nobody permanently retains the others details... like a reference number that verifies a person's credentials, but is held for a week or so, then is reused like a rolling code. The only thing is that it would need to be used for more than just escorts, it would need to be used for things like Facebook marketplace and kijiji so that simply being on that verifies list wouldn't infer you are an SP or an consumer of services.

 

[Haggy64]

Bingo, now we’re getting somewhere. Next question, who deems whether someone is an employee or an independent contractor? I mean, can I just open a Tim Hortons and sign all the workers as independent contractors?

Exactly… I feel the argument that many agencies would make if they were taken to task regarding labour code violations is that they are simply connecting clients with providers and supplying qaccommodations for a fee. Theoretically for an employer/employee relationship to exist, the employer sets the working hours, rate of pay, what is expected of the employee, etc. , and in turn pays the employee an agreed upon wage. If the agency follows the model whereby they dictate hours, rates, conditions, collect fees from the clients, and in turn pay the SP, I think it could be argued there is employee/employer relationship. If the agency adopts the model whereby they allow the SP to choose their own hours, rates, decide on the services they provide while providing scheduling, advertising and accommodation, have the SP collect fees from the client and charge the SP a fee or percentage for their services, I think you’d have a hard time arguing the employee/employer relationship exists…I feel like both types of agencies exist, which was my point earlier in this thread. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what your experience has been with agencies.. Do you sign a contract? Can you dictate your own hours and services? Who collects fees?

Also, if there is a true employer/employee relationship, you get into whether WSIB, vacation pay, benefits etc., should be provided. If agencies were mandated to provide all of this I have to think the percentage they retain would have to increase to cover costs. All this, coupled with the reluctance of SPs to pursue legal action against their agency because of the nature of the industry makes to very hard to regulate.

I’m not suggesting for a second that there are not agencies out there who mistreat their SPs. Only that there are some well run and respectable ones as well.

 

[@madelineklaire]

Boy this subject really came off the rails. I think people need to recognize this is why SP's tend to move around agency's so much... because theres no protecting them with the labour rules. Also this is probably why Indy's become indys.
Not everyone wants to go out for dinner at the Mandrin, some people find small restaurants where better food is served and is made to order... some elitists can afford their own private chef. Thats no reason to argue.
I think the driving force behind agencies is that indy's need to ask for credentials for their own security. Unfortunately all these money transfers and government ID's people need to provide are traceable FOR EVER. So unless your ok with being contacted and flagged years after seeing a particular client, or host then you're stuck with agencies... thats just how it is. And your info will be added to a data base that flags you every time you deal with police from that point forward whether either is charged or convicted... Google NicheRMS. Someone needs to develop a verification process where nobody permanently retains the others details... like a reference number that verifies a person's credentials, but is held for a week or so, then is reused like a rolling code. The only thing is that it would need to be used for more than just escorts, it would need to be used for things like Facebook marketplace and kijiji so that simply being on that verifies list wouldn't infer you are an SP or an consumer of services.

Trust me, a lot of us see what’s happening from both sides. Providers end up leaning on agencies for safety, space, and reliable bookings, but that often means losing autonomy, income, and control. Clients feel it too: having to navigate screening, risk, scams, and inconsistent experiences while trying to find something safe and worthwhile.

The answer isn’t forcing rates down or pushing everyone into agencies. It’s building infrastructure that protects safety, respects autonomy, and makes it easier for good clients to connect with trustworthy providers without everyone feeling exposed or exploited.

Change is overdue, and some of us are working toward solutions that work better for both sides. Hopefully there will be something concrete to show for it soon.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Ah the old agencies vs Indies debate. I didn't want to chim in (yet) the other day cause i was away and only had my phone and i type so slow on this. Today i am on my PC so lets go...

I been in this business for around 16 years (2009). Go look me on Merb if you want (same name). So i fancy myself a veteran now as i am older (and been in the business) longer than most SPs who work now. I also was a booker for a VERY short stint.. It was not for me, for many reasons and i can develop on that and tell you its not all nice and dandy and i had to deal with drunk SPs who were unhappy of their days/clients, including but not limited to, being insulted profusely because she didn't had enough call in a day, or a client was not to her liking, and so on.... I was only the booker, not the driver. If a client was problematic it was the driver job to fix it (lots of bookings were dealt by text and were often straight to the point so its not like i could do intensive screening). Anyway i just included it because my short stint made me respect a lot more the booker's work in agencies as a client (i was a client before the booking thing and stayed a client after). I dealt with weird clients, escorts humors, i had to be available for long shifts, i was working 4 days in a row barely sleeping because i was answering clients at 10 am when lined open and our last calls were around 2am.... Once last call was done not always but sometimes i had to collect from drivers/escorts not to mention it was finally my "cooling down moment" but then 9 am i woke up, showered, already had a bunch of text "waiting" .. It was not the glamour/cool work project i expected from what i saw before (i was able to chill with an agency owner once and it was very different).

Anyway. So yeah i do respect the peoples behind who made the magic happen for us clients.

Also, i spoke to enough SPs and saw enough as a client to understand one thing. Agencies can serve 2 roles. Some SPs start in agencies and make a name for themselves. Giving you an exemple i saw an SP actually yesterday that i first saw in an agency. Her base rate was 260 or around that. I paid a few extras wich cost me around 100$ more for a total of around 340 or 360, can't remember exactly but 300 something. Yesterday i saw her as an indy for 600. 500 base + 100 extras. Almost doubles right? Did i cared? NO. I liked her and wanted to see her again. I was willing to pay the indy rate. She "won my business" in the agency first. Lots of escorts goes that route. Start in agencies, become "superstars" and then become indies at super higher prices. Heck i saw Sonia Von Sacher (yes THE Sonia wich you heard of) in an agency for 350$. Now she charge like a 1000$ or something. Good for her ! Im not gonna see her again at that rate because its out of my budget. But she became a superstar, got big in the business, get booked months in advance, im happy for her ! She deserve what she have now. Heck some services she used to offer back then when i saw her i don't even think she does anymore at triple the rate lol. But again, its because clients know her, she worked for that recognition.

The other agencies escorts are the ones who simply just want to show up for work and do not care for all the fluff. Be it answer text, promote themselves (website, ads etc), drive themselves or rent an incall. Again i saw an agency girl twice in recent years wich been around for YEARS. She is a superstar and has no booking issues. She CHOOSE to stat in agencies because she like just telling the agency wich day she want to work and have NOTHING else to worry about beside showing at the incall that day. She know the agency has regulars who trust said agency and will simply see escorts from that agency because they know its safe and then she also have her regulars who want to see her and just pass by the agency. Sure she pay a cut to the agency. But heck the same happen for talent agencies in porn or even mainstream movies. What is an hockey agent if not somebody that will deal the contract for you?

Im not saying its impossible for an indy to start as indy right away at premium and not have it work. Maybe she is willing to go face out, maybe she has social medias skills to capture clients, maybe she is simply so hot clients will book her for look. Who knows? Its possible. But the VAST majority of the escorts who now charge 500-600h as indy? Either they worked in agencies or parlors before and built a reputation or they had a something that drawn clients.

Myself as a client i am much more frisky at booking an indy at 600h that i never saw. I will sometimes do it but because reviews, reputation, social media presence etc. I could see someone as hot as my hollywood celebrity crush advertise as an indy with nothing but a few pics and i would pass because im not willing to take a risk. Im sure lots of clients are the same. At least not a 500-600.

Will i sometimes take a risk for an agency lady at 260? Yes. Heck you know what i do usually? I book the unknown agency lady at like 4pm for 1h, and if it turn out terrible i usually have another meeting in the evening with a known provider (or heavily reviewed) so i know my day will be cool anyway. On ocasions i got gems with that first meeting, on others it wasn't great ... but i took a risk, it was a gamble, i was at peace with myself to "lose that 260". If it had been 600 tough... yeah nah...

Im a mid class guy basically, heck maybe even under. Im not gonna say in what i work but i barely make more than a Mcdo employee ... You get the picture. I save to meet SPs ! Every $ is important.

Its easy for a guy who makes 250k a year to see SPs at the higher prices. 600$/h for 3h? No problem there. And good for the indy who built her reputation and craft to be able to be that one that this guy is gonna meet. But i think its cool that a more "casual guy" like me can also get some tender moments with SPs... And i don't have to go roam the street to find an SP that will sleep with me... No instead i can book someone from a reputated agency and have a great time and YES IN AN ETHICAL WAY as well. And im sure the SPs who go online and find the agency in question are much more happy to work in a cozy incall in a safe environement rather than jump in a car with a stranger like in 1991.

I will always defend agencies and praise them for what they offer to both the SPs and the clients.

I hope you all got my point of view. Sorry if my grammar is bad or such, english is not my first language. And yes its a wall of text. But all of this came from the heart.