Its interesting that Benazir Bhutto was assassinated shortly after that, and very funny that you think I am the pathetic idiot. Your statements show your lack of knowledge and your lack of class.
Is there a conspiracy about Bin Ladens death?
- Thread starter johnnyjohn17
- Start date
So the burden of proof is on the receivers of the message as opposed to the senders of the message? Proving a negative? What kind of blind-obedience, bass ackwards world do you live in?
Hey guess what!? I ass fucked Mila Kunis this morning. Call me when you have some evidence to dispute that official story.
when did i say anything about jews? i have no problem with jewish people. i have a problem with zionists, they are terrorists and were responsible for 9/11
I totally agree about the US government ... and not releasing the photo could be, Bin Laden has been dead long ago, so obviously there are no photos to release.
What I find interesting is that the overwhelming lot of people on this board who are suggesting some conspiracy, have rarely weighed in on anything happening in this world before, if at all. The overwhelming lot of informed posters on both sides of the political spectrum here, agree that the fucker was killed this past weekend by Navy Seals. Gosh, who to believe?
Wow the conspiracy theorists came out quick on this one. Whether you choose to believe the government account is your choice. I choose to believe most of it and I base my conclusion on optics and risks.
Risks:
First of all the nature of the raid itself was hugely risky to Obama. An incursion into a foreign country with your own troops is a big deal. This ain't Predator drones dropping bombs. International incident right away. But manageable - just throw some money their way and say you're sorry.
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Secondly the operation took place far from the Afghan border near Pakistan's capital city and two army bases. Huge risk especially the distance from the Afghan border meant limited amount of operational support. What if the Pakistani Air Force were scrambled and shot down the helicopters on their way in or out for that matter. Can't hide from this one and it will make everyone look bad.
Third, it was in a populated part of Pakistan. Something goes wrong and it can be deadly and very public and there are so many things that can go wrong in an operation like this (helicopter malfunctions being one of them), I'm sure some of you are old enough to remember the attempted rescue of American hostages in Tehran. That was a huge failure and many believe it led to the election loss of Jimmy Carter. Nuff' said.
Finally, what if they hit the wrong house, kill innocent civilians (perhaps even a rich Pakistani governement official - many do live in the area). That would be a total disaster. Again that will mean the end of Obama in 2012
All of these things are risky and would doom Obama's presidency, reputation and re-election chances. No President would risk this or even fake something like this in that nature. If they wanted to fake something it would've been in an isolated farmhouse in Afghanistan and they would wipe out all witnesses.
Administration mistakes:
The Obama administration has been making all sorts of mistakes over the past few years in managing the message and this was no different. First of all, an event this big is bound to get out and they wanted to gets as much bang as they could for their buck, so they rush out an announcment Sunday night with a details press conference after. They should have said simply that, "US forces raided a house in Pakistan and killed OBL." Additional details are to follow after a detailed briefing from the raiding team. Obama can say the other stuff like, "I asked the CIA to find him, blah, blah, blah." But leave the details of how he was killed out until they got their story straight. The way it came out with the accounts of OBL shooting at the SEAL team, using a female human shield, etc. was messy and created/added to the conspiracy theorists. IMHO I think they are hiding something though, I think they shot OBL unarmed. Whether it was the zeal of the special forces or it was an order from the president to not take him alive, OBL was not suppose to leave that house alive. And with good reason. Can you imagine how many hundreds of millions it would cost to keep OBL as a prisoner? Would you take him to Guantanamo? Can you imagine how many guys you'd need to protect him? Can you imagine every Al Queda extremist trying to break him out? How about a trial? What kind of circus would that be? This was way easier and cheaper. The reasons for the mixed accounts also stems from a legal stand point, the law is fuzzy in the US about a president ordering a hit.
Optics:
The burial at sea was done after offering his body to several countries who all said "No thanks". The Obama administration has stated that they wanted to reset their relationships with the Muslim world after the Bush, so seeming to adhere to Muslim custom and respecting the body was an olive branch of acknowledgement towards them. Dumping him in the ocean also meant no shrine for OBL where his followers can rally. It was a gamble but it has worked because the Muslim populations have not freaked out and protested in the streets. They're not burning anymore American flags than before in Palestine. His followers and extremist will still be his followers and extremist but the US did not want the general Muslim community to get up in arms and they've largely not done so (remember just recently when the Quoran was burned - it caused the deaths of many UN workers in Afghanistan - I'm sure this was on the President's mind as well). Not parading his body and acting like a bunch of pack animals was another thing to quell any Muslim complaints. Obama is right, he's not a trophy just a dead asshole. I'm very certain that the entire operation and process from start to finish has been documented by the government. In time through Freedom of Information Act requests there will be some stuff that we can see. But no point in inflaming regular Muslims right now. Things will die down and then they'll come out.
This was an extremely risky operation that could have led to the downfall of the President if it failed (it's akin to going all-in and hoping that the last card will give you a straight). He gambled and it paid off. It's not worth faking by any stretch of the imagination because if the truth comes out he'll be sunk. Remember, no one was thinking about Osama Bin Laden. If he was never caught it wouldn't matter, Bush never caught him either. So given that, why risk it.
He did it and he deserves credit for it. It was all or nothing.
Risks:
First of all the nature of the raid itself was hugely risky to Obama. An incursion into a foreign country with your own troops is a big deal. This ain't Predator drones dropping bombs. International incident right away. But manageable - just throw some money their way and say you're sorry.
[/B]
Secondly the operation took place far from the Afghan border near Pakistan's capital city and two army bases. Huge risk especially the distance from the Afghan border meant limited amount of operational support. What if the Pakistani Air Force were scrambled and shot down the helicopters on their way in or out for that matter. Can't hide from this one and it will make everyone look bad.
Third, it was in a populated part of Pakistan. Something goes wrong and it can be deadly and very public and there are so many things that can go wrong in an operation like this (helicopter malfunctions being one of them), I'm sure some of you are old enough to remember the attempted rescue of American hostages in Tehran. That was a huge failure and many believe it led to the election loss of Jimmy Carter. Nuff' said.
Finally, what if they hit the wrong house, kill innocent civilians (perhaps even a rich Pakistani governement official - many do live in the area). That would be a total disaster. Again that will mean the end of Obama in 2012
All of these things are risky and would doom Obama's presidency, reputation and re-election chances. No President would risk this or even fake something like this in that nature. If they wanted to fake something it would've been in an isolated farmhouse in Afghanistan and they would wipe out all witnesses.
Administration mistakes:
The Obama administration has been making all sorts of mistakes over the past few years in managing the message and this was no different. First of all, an event this big is bound to get out and they wanted to gets as much bang as they could for their buck, so they rush out an announcment Sunday night with a details press conference after. They should have said simply that, "US forces raided a house in Pakistan and killed OBL." Additional details are to follow after a detailed briefing from the raiding team. Obama can say the other stuff like, "I asked the CIA to find him, blah, blah, blah." But leave the details of how he was killed out until they got their story straight. The way it came out with the accounts of OBL shooting at the SEAL team, using a female human shield, etc. was messy and created/added to the conspiracy theorists. IMHO I think they are hiding something though, I think they shot OBL unarmed. Whether it was the zeal of the special forces or it was an order from the president to not take him alive, OBL was not suppose to leave that house alive. And with good reason. Can you imagine how many hundreds of millions it would cost to keep OBL as a prisoner? Would you take him to Guantanamo? Can you imagine how many guys you'd need to protect him? Can you imagine every Al Queda extremist trying to break him out? How about a trial? What kind of circus would that be? This was way easier and cheaper. The reasons for the mixed accounts also stems from a legal stand point, the law is fuzzy in the US about a president ordering a hit.
Optics:
The burial at sea was done after offering his body to several countries who all said "No thanks". The Obama administration has stated that they wanted to reset their relationships with the Muslim world after the Bush, so seeming to adhere to Muslim custom and respecting the body was an olive branch of acknowledgement towards them. Dumping him in the ocean also meant no shrine for OBL where his followers can rally. It was a gamble but it has worked because the Muslim populations have not freaked out and protested in the streets. They're not burning anymore American flags than before in Palestine. His followers and extremist will still be his followers and extremist but the US did not want the general Muslim community to get up in arms and they've largely not done so (remember just recently when the Quoran was burned - it caused the deaths of many UN workers in Afghanistan - I'm sure this was on the President's mind as well). Not parading his body and acting like a bunch of pack animals was another thing to quell any Muslim complaints. Obama is right, he's not a trophy just a dead asshole. I'm very certain that the entire operation and process from start to finish has been documented by the government. In time through Freedom of Information Act requests there will be some stuff that we can see. But no point in inflaming regular Muslims right now. Things will die down and then they'll come out.
This was an extremely risky operation that could have led to the downfall of the President if it failed (it's akin to going all-in and hoping that the last card will give you a straight). He gambled and it paid off. It's not worth faking by any stretch of the imagination because if the truth comes out he'll be sunk. Remember, no one was thinking about Osama Bin Laden. If he was never caught it wouldn't matter, Bush never caught him either. So given that, why risk it.
He did it and he deserves credit for it. It was all or nothing.
the real quandary is for you and your mentor, woody
The Military did good and you can not say anything bad because Obama says he ran the whole operation.
It's called propaganda.Most every country does it.Allegations, etc., to assist or damage the cause of a government.Or,to cover their asses and look good in the eyes of the masses.
Well written. Politics is a very risky calculating game. Risk and rewards. Obama deserves credit for this one. Politics is also a very dirty game. Pakistan knew all along where Osama was. They were just using him to get aids from US like any other countries which received aids from US. I was an officer in guerrilla army in my late 20s near the so called Golden Triangle area which consists of Thai, Burma and Laos where drug war lord Khunsa and Lao Si-han were producing massive heroin in the 70s. US drug enforcement agency(DEA) was giving all kinds of arms, helicopters and financial aids to Thailand to hunt the drug war lords down. We all knew where they were and Thai Govt even provided them a mansion in Bangkok. Our view was why kill the golden Goose giving us golden eggs
Obama's dead line to pull out troops from Afgan is approacing fast, so they have to find a way to wrap up the on going saga with a happy ending.
I'm glad Bin Laden is gone and I have no doubt that they got the right guy but I think there are a lot of either very stupid people in the white house or more is going on then they are letting on.
1) An unarmed Bin Laden made a threatening gesture to provoke his shooting. These guys are the elite of the elite. They could probably kill you with a toothpick. So armed with guns, seven against an unarmed man surprised in his bedroom - what fucking gesture could this guy come up with that terrified these elite professionals ? Give me a fucking break ! Just say he was taken down on orders - grow some balls.
2) Bin Ladens body was disposed in accordance with tradition so that he can safely get to the virgins waiting for him. This was done to prevent pissing off Al Quaeda (sp?) members.
i) Don't you think that knowing that you possibly may not get to the promised virgins but end up in Hell dissuade some suicide terrorists ?
ii) Al Quaeda already hates you and have threaten to destroy you and your families - how more pissed off can they get ?
iii) For those who are Muslim and hated Bin Laden (there are many in NYC) - do you think they care ? Did you care if Ted Bundy got a proper service after he was executed ?
3) Bin Laden's body is disposed at sea and absolutely no proof other than government officials 'trust me' is offered.
i) Without out proof (as the Taliban have already suggested) - Bin Laden has fooled the U.S. and is still in hiding. Obama did this to improve his slumping image and take US citizens mind off of their worsening domestic situation. Nothing distracts US citizens like flag waving !
ii) Bin Laden himself is a treasure trove of intelligence information. Why kill him and then have to go on a new tedious hunt for the new #1 and #2, etc ? Why not go in, fire one drug dart and some few paint balls to give the appearance to the wife or other witnesses left behind that he's dead ? Why not toss some blood and then take the live Bin Laden with you ? You bury some manikin at sea and now you have the luxury of torturing and disposing of a man that doesn't exist.
iii) Or you don't release any photos because you are an idiot who doesn't want to offend sworn enemies.
My impressions to date for the record.
1) An unarmed Bin Laden made a threatening gesture to provoke his shooting. These guys are the elite of the elite. They could probably kill you with a toothpick. So armed with guns, seven against an unarmed man surprised in his bedroom - what fucking gesture could this guy come up with that terrified these elite professionals ? Give me a fucking break ! Just say he was taken down on orders - grow some balls.
2) Bin Ladens body was disposed in accordance with tradition so that he can safely get to the virgins waiting for him. This was done to prevent pissing off Al Quaeda (sp?) members.
i) Don't you think that knowing that you possibly may not get to the promised virgins but end up in Hell dissuade some suicide terrorists ?
ii) Al Quaeda already hates you and have threaten to destroy you and your families - how more pissed off can they get ?
iii) For those who are Muslim and hated Bin Laden (there are many in NYC) - do you think they care ? Did you care if Ted Bundy got a proper service after he was executed ?
3) Bin Laden's body is disposed at sea and absolutely no proof other than government officials 'trust me' is offered.
i) Without out proof (as the Taliban have already suggested) - Bin Laden has fooled the U.S. and is still in hiding. Obama did this to improve his slumping image and take US citizens mind off of their worsening domestic situation. Nothing distracts US citizens like flag waving !
ii) Bin Laden himself is a treasure trove of intelligence information. Why kill him and then have to go on a new tedious hunt for the new #1 and #2, etc ? Why not go in, fire one drug dart and some few paint balls to give the appearance to the wife or other witnesses left behind that he's dead ? Why not toss some blood and then take the live Bin Laden with you ? You bury some manikin at sea and now you have the luxury of torturing and disposing of a man that doesn't exist.
iii) Or you don't release any photos because you are an idiot who doesn't want to offend sworn enemies.
My impressions to date for the record.
jknIf I'm the expert you concede, wouldn't you figure I'd recognized when I'm getting fucked ??
They are my impressions - if you have any intellect observations - make them. If politics is a complicated concept for you, don't assume we all have the same handicap.
You're assuming the Blackhawks were not the "stealth" versions, as some reports are now indicating were the ones used. As well, as more info comes out it seems the 40 minute firefight wasn't nearly that long.
Maybe because the notion that Osama had a kidney problem is just an unsubstantiated rumour propagated by one offhand comment from one US intelligence agent, and denied by Al Qaeda:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/kidney.asp
The fact that they have his wife and kids, and that one of the kids has told the Pakistanis that she saw her father get shot (she disputes the American timeline) is pretty solid evidence that they really did get him.
That's better than a dialysis machine, or a photograph (which could just be photoshopped anyway).
That's better than a dialysis machine, or a photograph (which could just be photoshopped anyway).
.
I also thought why not take him in if it was possible to not kill him. The likely reaction of a Bin Laden capture is a flurry of westerners in the Middle East being taken hostage and likely killed if Bin Laden was not released. Basically they had to kill the guy.
How on earth do you put all that together. What you think Saudi Arabia should still be Nejd and the Hejaz or are you supporting the Al Rasheed? According to OBL he was angered by U.S. forces being in Saudi Arabia after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait
Be that as it may, it doesn't mean they had to kill the guy. We do not have to sacrifice our principles just because they've sacrificed theirs. In one way killing him, or torturing him, is giving into terrorism. I honestly think the majority in the middle east are moral, ethical people and if they can see that it's only the terrorists who commit atrocities, and that we operate ethically regardless, that eventually that will turn the tide against them. The short-term gains from committing atrocity in order to achieve "results" is very short sighted, and likely loses the war. As it stands the view in the Middle East is that America is no worse than Al Qaeda.
That said it's rampant speculation that he could have been captured alive. I know if I had been sent to capture him, given who he is, I'd have been pretty paranoid that he might be concealing a grenade or suicide vest and planning to take me with him. We simply don't have enough information to know whether or not taking him alive was actually a viable option.
