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Is global warming bad?

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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Regardless whether or not we agree humans are entirely responsible, we have a growing problem on our hands.

To me it comes down to a simple equation. Though there may be many causes for increased CO2 in the atmosphere, clearly we are a major contributor. At the same time we are reducing the natural engines for converting this back into oxygen at an unprecedented rate.
 

onthebottom

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Jan 10, 2002
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Is Global warming happening - probably

Is Global warming bad - yes

Is Kyoto the solution - not for the US - you can blame Bush all you want but at the end of the day there is no way it would make it through the Senate. Not to insult anyone, while the Senate often gives a President the right to negotiate treaties, only the Senate can ratify them. There is no way Kyoto would make it through a Democratic or Republican controlled Senate.

As noted above, some very large contributors to Global Warming (China for instance) get off completely. The Economist reported that Beijing produces more smog than L.A. and Tokyo COMBINED with half the cars.

The US has a drastically different transportation model than does Europe, we are completely different in our geography and travel patterns - let's face it, we need our SUVs ;-)

How many Canadians would lose their jobs at Auto parts firms if the US joined Kyoto?

OTB
 

Ranger68

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The US needs to be a world leader in multi-lateral initiatives. They used to be. They have forsaken that route, to the detriment of everyone, in order to attempt to establish global hegemony, and the continuation, into the future, of US military, economic, and political dominance of the world (this is roughly in *their* words - I can provide actual quotes, if you'd prefer).

The simple fact is, they don't have enough money for Kyoto. Really, they don't have enough money for their military, or much of anything for that matter. More's the pity that they feel the need to spend TENS OF BILLIONS of dollars on missile defense systems, and new nuclear delivery systems (wait for it).

Nevertheless, it would be HELPFUL for the rest of us if the US came up with some sort of SOLUTION to the PROBLEM of greenhouse gas emissions contributing to global warming, rather than just poo-pooing what everyone else says.

The industrialized nations have historically led the way in terms of global initiatives - the UN, the ICC - all global, multi-lateral initiatives were developed by western industrialized nations, and most of them by the US. At one point, America thought that this was the way to perfect a *real* new world order. This is very reasonable and predictable. They must continue to do so.

To force non-industrialized nations to cut greenhouse gas emissions without a well-developed industrial infrastructure in place is foolish. And beside the point, frankly. Developing nations are not expected to become the world's leading emitters for thirty to forty years. This is plenty of time for the current industrialized nations to clean up their own acts, and have shown the way for the rest of the world, multilaterally.

Which is the way it used to be.

Finally, to put a few lies to rest:
- Russia is NOT allowed to increase emissions. As they are judged to be undergoing the transition to a market economy, they are allowed to *maintain current levels*, but not increase them.
- The United States must cut emissions by only seven percent, while MOST of the signatory countries must cut by eight percent. This accord is NOT anti-American. In fact, many of the ones who helped develop it were American. There were several provisions put in place at the behest of the Americans.
- It is almost certain that the current drastically increased level of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere is attributable to the industrial revolution, not to the increase in global population. Meaning that WE are the culprits, not a billion people in China.
- The problem has already been "initiated". We must cut *current levels* of greenhouse has emissions, not prevent future increased emissions. Kyoto deals with this.

Once again, the industrialized world should put its house in order before asking the developing world to do so. Kyoto actually deals with BOTH at the same time (by permitting industrialized nations to receive credit for financing emission-reducing projects in developing nations). Again, is it the BEST we could come up with? Almost certainly not. To wait around for the "best" solution all the time is fruitless and counter-productive.

(By the by, I have yet to see any scientific postings, any links to any studies, advocating the ANTI-Kyoto stand, or maintaining that "global warming" is just "junk science". I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath.)
 

papasmerf

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Winston said:
Evolution takes place slowly, over many generations.

The type of climate change we are talking about is vastly acelertated due to man's screwing with fossil fuels.

Think of what happened to the dinosaurs.




Before you tout the plight of the dino, ask yourself: Would I want one living next door to me????? Ah hell no. So maybe climatic change is good.

Or was it the big asteriod that hit the earth and killed the dinos?? freaking records and film is not not clear from the day the dinos died.
 

langeweile

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Sep 21, 2004
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bbking said:
While I am in agreement with you about the big dinos - the problem identified as Global Warming implys that coal plant emmissions and auto emmisions are warming up the planet and altering the planet's climate. This is just not true - what it is at best doing is speeding up the normal flow of climate change with the next change being an iceage. We would have to go another 300 years with what we are doing to get to the start of the next iceage. It is hard to say if these emmissions are causing increase in skin cancer due to UV radiation or if this in fact is the normal course of planet weather.

Now would we all be healthier without fossil fuels - yeap, but that won't be a problem 20-30 years from now when the supply of crude crashes and it becomes economical to find alternate energy sources.


bbk
BBK I am impressed. I had you wrong all along. Sometimes you do make sense.
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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As I suggested earlier what seems to be missing in this discussion is that CO2 levels would continue to rise even without the burning of fossil fuels. The FAO estimates a net loss of forests worldwide at nearly 10 million hectacres every year (the US Forest Service puts the figure closer to 8 Million). To put in perspective this is an area equivalent to 100,000 sq. kilometers, about five times the surface area of Lake Ontario. In the last twenty years as temperatures in the North Pacific have risen, plankton has dropped by 10%. Ocean plankton are at least as critical as forests for oxygen production.

The point is that regardless of the source, the earth is quickly losing it's capacity to process CO2 into oxygen. Global warming is a symptom of this. Whether it will also accelerate the process remains to be seen.
 
Last edited:
Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
onthebottom said:

As noted above, some very large contributors to Global Warming (China for instance) get off completely. The Economist reported that Beijing produces more smog than L.A. and Tokyo COMBINED with half the cars.
Yes, I agree, Kyoto made to many concessions to "developing" nations, seemingly accepting the principle that industrialisation must always pass through a "massive polution phase" as it did in England in the 19th century. Of course, without such concessions, developing countries would have seen the accord as an attempt to curtail their growth, and they might have been right.

The US has a drastically different transportation model than does Europe, we are completely different in our geography and travel patterns - let's face it, we need our SUVs ;-)
Oh, God, I hope you're kidding. How many mountains do you need to climb over to get to work?

How many Canadians would lose their jobs at Auto parts firms if the US joined Kyoto?
Assuming car manufactures were responsible and installed the relatively inexpensive equipment to make cars more fuel efficient - something they ought to be doing anyway - none.
 
Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
papasmerf said:
Before you tout the plight of the dino, ask yourself: Would I want one living next door to me????? Ah hell no. So maybe climatic change is good.
There are several million species living on this planet who are no doubt saying the same thing about us.
 

papasmerf

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Oct 22, 2002
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Drunken Master said:
There are several million species living on this planet who are no doubt saying the same thing about us.


Yep

Pretty much so, well that assumes you talk to the animals.
 

Ranger68

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bbking said:
While I am in agreement with you about the big dinos - the problem identified as Global Warming implys that coal plant emmissions and auto emmisions are warming up the planet and altering the planet's climate. This is just not true - what it is at best doing is speeding up the normal flow of climate change with the next change being an iceage. We would have to go another 300 years with what we are doing to get to the start of the next iceage. It is hard to say if these emmissions are causing increase in skin cancer due to UV radiation or if this in fact is the normal course of planet weather.

Now would we all be healthier without fossil fuels - yeap, but that won't be a problem 20-30 years from now when the supply of crude crashes and it becomes economical to find alternate energy sources.


bbk
You do NOT know that this is not true - that HCGW is a myth. There is TONS of evidence, piling up daily, that this IS the case.
Sorry.
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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bbking said:
While I am in agreement with you about the big dinos - the problem identified as Global Warming implys that coal plant emmissions and auto emmisions are warming up the planet and altering the planet's climate. This is just not true - what it is at best doing is speeding up the normal flow of climate change with the next change being an iceage.
OK bbk, go for it. Explain to me how rising CO2 levels and the drastic reduction of vegetation to deal with it, is simply speeding up the "normal flow" of climate change towards an iceage. This should be good.
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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bbking said:
I didn't say it would be good
No, I meant your explanation should be good. Guess not.
 

papasmerf

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Oct 22, 2002
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What is Canada doing about global warming.

Is Canada planning on passing laws banning the use of Co2 producing fuels?

What will you do to force the Canadian Government to comply with the views expressed here by Canadians???? In that as Canadians your best shot with geting things done is at home and not trying to reform others first.
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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papasmerf,

You're ranting again. As a US citizen I wouldn't presume to speak for Canadians, but I do know that the leaders in my country have done squat to address this issue.
 

papasmerf

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Asterix said:
papasmerf,

You're ranting again. As a US citizen I wouldn't presume to speak for Canadians, but I do know that the leaders in my country have done squat to address this issue.

Not a rant, all valid questions.



As for squat??????????????/

Do you remember the Great Lakes in the 60's and or 70's??

Do you remember what the air looked like in Buffalo up untill the 80's?? I think you will find that things are improving. But remember it takes time.

Where a company to market a car that ran on water for the same price as one that runs on gas. You would see a glut of peoplke lined up for it. Of course the cost of water would rise to 3 bucks a gallon.
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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papasmerf said:
Not a rant, all valid questions.



As for squat??????????????/

Do you remember the Great Lakes in the 60's and or 70's??

Do you remember what the air looked like in Buffalo up untill the 80's?? I think you will find that things are improving. But remember it takes time.

Yes, the Clean Air Act did much to improve the environment.Too bad Bush and the republicans are doing their level best to gut it, but that's another discussion. What I was referring to was the issue of global warming and the loss of forests and ocean life, and as far as addressing it or even discussing it, the current administration especially, has done squat.
 

papasmerf

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Oct 22, 2002
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Asterix said:
Yes, the Clean Air Act did much to improve the environment.Too bad Bush and the republicans are doing their level best to gut it, but that's another discussion. What I was referring to was the issue of global warming and the loss of forests and ocean life, and as far as addressing it or even discussing it, the current administration especially, has done squat.


If this is a problem that has grown as some would say exponentualy no one administration can correct it.


The deforesting in the rain forests has not just began, nor is it a Bush administrations program. The over logging of US forests has occured only in the past 4 years?

The polutants in the ocean are a result of Bush?

What steps have you done to replenish and correct what you bring up?????

Is voting enuff?? Or would the best and most direct way be in planing trees, cleaning up the beaches, buying browfields and restoring them to clean and productive lands? Investing in companies working on water based fuels and even puching for laws allowing no fuel buring transports be allowed in urban areas to be own and maintained by privite citizens?
 
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