Iraq vs Vietnam

[xarir]

Yet another thread on Iraq - apologies in advance.

Today things took a turn for the worse over there. Civilian aid workers (including one Canadian) have been kidnapped. Will this be sufficient to edge the Western powers closer to negotiated solutions? Probably not. After all, who is there to negotiate with? I fear that innocent civilians will continue to pay the price for President Bush's vindictive approach to Iraq.

On a related note, I read an opinion piece on the BBC website which compared Iraq to Vietnam. There are obvious differences between the two situations, but it's interesting to note that one of the main difficulties faced by the US military is how to separate combatants from civilians. Instead of facing this problem in the jungles of Vietnam, the Americans now face it in the dusty villages of Iraq. Will they ever be able to pull out and still claim victory?

 

[smart_alek]

I also heard about the unfortunate incident of a Canadian working for the Red Cross being kidnapped. What do we do? Do we send in JTF2 and get him out? We don't want to be drawn into this war. The thing is, I don't know who the American's are fighting, because they have already "won", yet the country is in turmoil and the world has yet to see the plan that the American Administration had for Iraq.

 

[Ickabod]

yet the country is in turmoil and the world has yet to see the plan that the American Administration had for Iraq.

The American administration didn't have a plan for Iraq. They thought that all they had to do was get rid of Hussein, and then everyone would give each other a big fat community hug and all our problems would be solved.

 

[boyr]

Yet another thread on Iraq - apologies in advance.

Instead of facing this problem in the jungles of Vietnam, the Americans now face it in the dusty villages of Iraq. Will they ever be able to pull out and still claim victory?

The americans should leave Iraq and let the Iraqi people re- build their own country, just like Vietnam. They did not find any evidence of "weapons of mass destruction". Now, they are finding "rebellious iraqi people" who want to fight for their freedom. It is the question now of "identity, survival and independence from foreign invasion". The American soldiers are not helping Iraq, but they are guarding the "Oil Wells of Iraq".....

 

[ocean976124]

I don't think Iraq can be compared to Vietnam just yet. I don't think the Americans have lost even 1000 men yet. Vietnam's casualties were much much higher.
I think July (after the handover of power) will be when the picture becomes clearer. How much longer will Iraqis be content to kill other Iraqis? At some point I'd imagine the average person will get upset with the fact these terrorists are killing Iraqi citizens who are doing nothing more than trying to form a self-government.

 

[wollensak]

Iraq probably needs repression

Take away the strongman at the top and most of these countries dissolve into chaos.

Why? Because there is no central unifying set of cultural norms.
The clerics in Iraq say it's OK to kill Americans but not to desecrate their bodies.

Any society that says it's OK to kill others based on the say-so of some ayatollah or other, is not a society based on the rule of law.

When the Americans go all hell will break loose.

When the Berlin wall came down, the same thing happened.
The US knows very well that democracy is not a universal panacea. In the past they have suppressed democratic movements they didn't like, and they will continue to do so in the future.

There are intelligent, educated and dedicated people among the Iraqi citizenry. Unfortuneately for them they are living amidst a majority of people whose thinking is more reflective of the 10th
century than the 21st.

 

[Keebler Elf]

As harsh as it may sound, the US is indeed doing the right thing by sticking it out in Iraq. If they leave, the whole enterprise will result in failure. The next Saddam will rise to power and Iraq will still be hostile to the US for "destroying" their country.

Better for the US to swallow the bitter pill and remain, kill the hardcore insurgents, protect the UN force that will eventually move in, and then depart once things have settled.

There is still hope for some element of democracy in Iraq. But not if the US cuts and runs like it did in Somalia.

 

[Drunken Master]

iraq vs viet nam?

I think viet nam could take Iraq

Yes, but could Superman beat the Flash in a foot race?

 

[Jungleismassive]

As harsh as it may sound, the US is indeed doing the right thing by sticking it out in Iraq. If they leave, the whole enterprise will result in failure. The next Saddam will rise to power and Iraq will still be hostile to the US for "destroying" their country.

Better for the US to swallow the bitter pill and remain, kill the hardcore insurgents, protect the UN force that will eventually move in, and then depart once things have settled.

There is still hope for some element of democracy in Iraq. But not if the US cuts and runs like it did in Somalia.

Agreed. 100%.

 

[ocean976124]

As harsh as it may sound, the US is indeed doing the right thing by sticking it out in Iraq. If they leave, the whole enterprise will result in failure. The next Saddam will rise to power and Iraq will still be hostile to the US for "destroying" their country.

Better for the US to swallow the bitter pill and remain, kill the hardcore insurgents, protect the UN force that will eventually move in, and then depart once things have settled.

There is still hope for some element of democracy in Iraq. But not if the US cuts and runs like it did in Somalia.

Well, cutting our loses and running from Somalia emboldened the terrorists. They believe now that if they cause a certain number of casualties that we will run away. The newest terrorist recuiting video in Iraq includes scenes from the movie Black Hawk Down.
Though when the supposed letter to al Qaeda was intercepted it reportedly bemoaned the fact that despite a high number of casualties the Americans' resolve did not appear to be weakening and we did not appear to be close to leaving. So maybe this uprising is their last gasp at trying to run us out of town.

 

[Peace4u]

My opinion is to stay the course in Iraq.We can only leave when there is a more stable Government.Negotiating with Sadaam or most terorists and dictators is impossible.We being America have lost over 600 good young men and woman over there.My heart and prayers go out to all the families who have lost loved ones over there.To leave now i beleive and not support the troops would be grave mistake for the free world and a slap in the face to those who fought and died for the Iraq,s freedom.I pray for a quick resolution to the fighting and hostilities in Iraq. God Bless You All

 

[xarir]

I actually agree with those who feel the US should stick around in Iraq. If they pull out now, the lack of clear leadership will very likely result in more long term problems.

I just wish the US had a proper plan. You'd think the US government (Bush et al) would have figured this out. After the Allies defeated Hitler's Nazi Germany, they were there for decades sorting things out. And this was in a Westernized country that already had a grasp of democracy and the concept of individual freedom. (Arguably though they were also there to "prevent the spread of communism".) To democratize Iraq though will be a difficult and lengthy task to say the least. I wonder if the resolve is truly there to see things through?

 

[Keebler Elf]

I think the priority was going in, not what to do afterwards. Figuring out the latter could have resulted in years and years of analysis with nothing gained. They took a gamble (on not seeking international cooperation before they went in) and it didn't pay off. Now they're really paying for it.

But at least they took a stance. I have more respect for that than when people waffle back and forth and can't make a decision at all.

 

[Cinema Face]

I agree with all the things said here.

Iraq isn’t even close to Vietnam

If the US pulls out now, it will be a disaster. It will surely condemn Iraq to chaos as the factions battle it out in the power vacuum that would exist.

Unfortunately the US has only one way out of this. That is to crush the insurgents by whatever means necessary. It will be ugly and the body count will be high on both sides.

The US must be successful. If they succeed in stomping on this insurgent, it will discourage others to try when they see that a power grab has little chance of success.

Hopefully they’ve learned from the mistakes made in Vietnam. In Vietnam, they used restraint for political reasons and the military was forced to fight with one hand tied behind their back. It didn’t work.

To put a democracy in a country that has only ever known butal dictatorship is a huge undertaking with many dangers and setbacks. Like Xarir said, I hope they have the resolve to see it through.

 

[johnnyhandsome]

As harsh as it may sound, the US is indeed doing the right thing by sticking it out in Iraq. If they leave, the whole enterprise will result in failure. The next Saddam will rise to power and Iraq will still be hostile to the US for "destroying" their country.

Better for the US to swallow the bitter pill and remain, kill the hardcore insurgents, protect the UN force that will eventually move in, and then depart once things have settled.

There is still hope for some element of democracy in Iraq. But not if the US cuts and runs like it did in Somalia.

Guess what Keebler,

You and me are on the same wavelength. We need to clean up the whole area and set up a gas station. Nuff said!!!
The entire Middle East is better served by the USA doing some vacuum cleaning, if you know what I mean!!!!!!!!

 

[luckydragon]

Iraq is a mixed up situation, but....

If the US Pulls out now, all the deaths that have happened will have been in vain. Keebler is right. Although the US occupation is unpopular, leaving Iraq will cause a power vacumn which will create an environment suitable for warlords and civil war.

 

[tompeepin]

Re: Iraq probably needs repression

Take away the strongman at the top and most of these countries dissolve into chaos.

Why? Because there is no central unifying set of cultural norms.
The clerics in Iraq say it's OK to kill Americans but not to desecrate their bodies.

Any society that says it's OK to kill others based on the say-so of some ayatollah or other, is not a society based on the rule of law.

When the Americans go all hell will break loose.

When the Berlin wall came down, the same thing happened.
The US knows very well that democracy is not a universal panacea. In the past they have suppressed democratic movements they didn't like, and they will continue to do so in the future.

There are intelligent, educated and dedicated people among the Iraqi citizenry. Unfortuneately for them they are living amidst a majority of people whose thinking is more reflective of the 10th century than the 21st.

I agree fully with wollensak. Culturally the society in Iraq is more suited to (dictatorial) religious rule, as in Iran, or the strong fist of a dictator. Therefore for democracy to succeed it needs to be the new dictator. And how can democracy be a dictator? Anything else is wishful thinking. Cultures take a long time to reform.

Personally I see it more akin to Lebanon than Vietnam.

The Americans will "hand over control" but their soldiers will be there for quite some time to police the country and establish "democracy".

 

[HowardHughes]

Call me brutal...

I just think that the US should up the ante with the insurgents.

The Americans should learn from the French mistakes in Indochina.

Little known fact about Indochina - when the French were getting hammered in 1953/54, they wound up recruiting former hardened SS commanders. They started to make progress, until the press caught wind of it.

I say the Americans should stop listening to endless "humanitarian" campaigns - as they are now fighting with one arm tied behind their back.

Go in there, and basically refuse to negotiate with terrorists. If you are a foreign correspondent or journalist, and decide to go into a "hot" zone, you have to accept the risk of being held hostage. The Americans should not compromise their position in Iraq.

Sorry to sound brutally harsh, but that is the way it has to be - or the next group of hardliners will know that the Americans will step back for a certain price.

Crush them. Pure and simple.

 

[HowardHughes]

I know it sounds brutal - however, the way I see it, if the US hadn't bugged out of Somalia, the insurgents in Iraq might not be as bold.

I feel that if they are in for a penny, they've got to be in for a pound.

Trust me, I'm Scottish - the true way to deal with them would be to draw and quarter each offending individual.

To quote a certain Col. W. Kurtz...

"Fear and moral terror are your friends...if they are not, they are enemies to be feared".

 

[tompeepin]

HH- you are brutal.

But he is being pragmatic. Either you are there to get the job done or you have bitten off more than you are willing to chew. HowardHughes is being practical. Why did the US drop the bomb on Japan? To get to the inevitable more quickly, saving the lives of many US soldiers. I do not agree with this act, but from a self-interest perspective it is the only way to go. [I am not suggesting that they should drop a bomb anywhere, just that taking a hard line would not be unreasonable considering the context.]

We are talking politics not humanitarianism. Those who think that it was for humanitarian reasons are delusional.

I do not agree with the US being in Iraq, but if they are there they should stop being politically correct and do what they intend to do anyway. Relative to the humanitarian perspective war is evil. We can debate evil all day. But if you are at war then adhere to the art of war and not humanitarianism. History will get rewritten anyway and in 100 years it all will not matter anyway. [Do you think that the average Joe on the street cares less about all the innocent boy soldiers and civilians slaughtered in WWI. Some get all sentimental on Remembrance Day, but other than that it is forgotten and even in that context, the individual is always forgotten. The same holds true for the Russian Revolution, the American Civil war, the Napoleonic wars, the French Revolution and the American Revolution. And the same will hold true for WWII as soon as no one has a first hand account of a relative who died in that war.]