Interesting child support case

[RTRD]

You're right...

How do you KNOW she didn't lie? How do You, MLAM, Personally Know that she was not lying when she said she can't remember who the father was & how do you KNOW what she told her husband if anything regarding Her kids parentage?

...I forgot that she would have been able look into the eyes of her children and know which of the two flavors of sperm she was ingesting at the time actually resulted in a pregnancy.

Insofar as the rest, me think you doth protest to much...so yes, I am going to assume that I am correct, and that would explain the general slant of your posts historically....

 

[themexi]

...I forgot that she would have been able look into the eyes of her children and know which of the two flavors of sperm she was ingesting at the time actually resulted in a pregnancy.

Insofar as the rest, me think you doth protest to much...so yes, I am going to assume that I am correct, and that would explain the general slant of your posts historically....

The fact that there WERE 2 "flavors of sperm she was ingesting at the time" should have introduced enough uncertainty for her to disclose, Fraud by an act of omission is still fraud.

I doth not protest too much, I ask you AGAIN simply to mind your own fucking business regarding my personal life. Assume away, omnipitent one... It certinly doesn't require onmipitence on my part to hve zero doubt that you will ssume you are correct... I mean.. that IS the only possible outcome for you isn't it? Perfect, (political) Correctness.


You seem to have this overwhelming need to feel that you are always right that you entirely miss the point that I won't tell you about my personal life details on an escort board Because. it. is. NONE. of. your. business. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?

How do you know that I don't have a kid or kids based on my opinions? There are LOTS of different reasons why people could be married with kids & still old the opinion that blood is everything when it comes to offspring. There are many cultures that have opinions that are different than yours....

But of course.... none of them can be right if they neither agree with you of fit into your personal little system of pigeonholing. What's a couple thousand years of human cultural development across the globe in comparison to the massive & benevolently sensitive liberal intellect that is MLAM?

 

[themexi]

...she didn't "lie"...she was sleeping with two different men...she'd have no way to know who the biological father was.

Oh... and another thing... I don't know if you're married & unlike you I don't see it as my business to know... But if you are then you should know that fucking someone else behind your spouse's back may not technically be "lying" if you somehow manage to never have to utter a single mistruth regarding the affair but it IS still deception.

 

[a 1 player]

Against my better judgment I'm going to offer my opinion.

I am the father of two kids from a previous marriage, and to the best of my knowledge they are my children. I say this because I have not had blood tests done, but they sure look like me, except much cuter.

I can see both sides of the picture here, and to a degree I agree with both, but not entirely on any side of the debate. Since the children have only ever known one father, I understand why the judge ruled in favor of the mother. If my children turned out not to be mine, I do not think I could love them any less and I would continue paying the support. I say this because even if I am not the sperm donor, they are MY kids and I have raised them according to my values and principles. I love them as MY children, and I always will.

That being said, I would launch the mother of all civil suits against the mother, and have her charged with fraud and every other thing I possibly could. To play someone to that extent is just plain evil, there is no other word for it. I can't even imagine discovering that my past 'X' number of years has been a fraud, and that I have been played for money.

Oh, but the money goes to the kids people would say. Bullshit! I can say without a doubt that the thousands of dollars I pay a year does not entirely go to the children. It goes to increase the standard of living of my ex-wife indirectly through my children. I have never had to option to provide formula, diapers, clothing, food or anything else that goes directly to the children. What I have done is pay for a house that is larger than my kids need, vacations for the ex-wife that she would not otherwise be able to afford, and meals out at least three times a week. Remember, the person getting support does NOT have to explain where the money is being spent.

This to me is where the issue is. I would have NO PROBLEM paying half the amount of support to my ex-wife and the other half going into an RESP for the kids. And I would have no problem of receipts were provided showing where the money is going to. All I can say is that when we were together, the kids did not cost a fraction of what I was paying, and that is not including the money she is getting from the government being a single parent, and the extra amount I pay for extra carricular activities and daycare.

But enough of that vent.

Yes, it is fraud by using the children to artificially increase ones standard of living, and the woman should be punished accordingly, both through charges of fraud, and through a very large civil legal suit.

 

[S.C. Joe]

Well said..but I'm not sure if he can sue her...and win

 

[themexi]

Against my better judgment I'm going to offer my opinion.

I am the father of two kids from a previous marriage, and to the best of my knowledge they are my children. I say this because I have not had blood tests done, but they sure look like me, except much cuter.

I can see both sides of the picture here, and to a degree I agree with both, but not entirely on any side of the debate. Since the children have only ever known one father, I understand why the judge ruled in favor of the mother. If my children turned out not to be mine, I do not think I could love them any less and I would continue paying the support. I say this because even if I am not the sperm donor, they are MY kids and I have raised them according to my values and principles. I love them as MY children, and I always will.

That being said, I would launch the mother of all civil suits against the mother, and have her charged with fraud and every other thing I possibly could. To play someone to that extent is just plain evil, there is no other word for it. I can't even imagine discovering that my past 'X' number of years has been a fraud, and that I have been played for money.

Oh, but the money goes to the kids people would say. Bullshit! I can say without a doubt that the thousands of dollars I pay a year does not entirely go to the children. It goes to increase the standard of living of my ex-wife indirectly through my children. I have never had to option to provide formula, diapers, clothing, food or anything else that goes directly to the children. What I have done is pay for a house that is larger than my kids need, vacations for the ex-wife that she would not otherwise be able to afford, and meals out at least three times a week. Remember, the person getting support does NOT have to explain where the money is being spent.

This to me is where the issue is. I would have NO PROBLEM paying half the amount of support to my ex-wife and the other half going into an RESP for the kids. And I would have no problem of receipts were provided showing where the money is going to. All I can say is that when we were together, the kids did not cost a fraction of what I was paying, and that is not including the money she is getting from the government being a single parent, and the extra amount I pay for extra carricular activities and daycare.

But enough of that vent.

Yes, it is fraud by using the children to artificially increase ones standard of living, and the woman should be punished accordingly, both through charges of fraud, and through a very large civil legal suit.

I think you have captured the issue in the most even manner.

If "child support" actually Mean supporting the child & was structured in such a way that the mother had to account for it & spend it on only the kids & only derive benefit from the money as a result of the $ going to the kids then that would be fair in almost every case.

In THIS case it would only be fair for him to be required to continue paying CS if the judge at least recognized the unfairness in more than mere lip service & ordered the "lady" to immediately begin a court ordered repayment of ALL CS paid once the kids were grown & would no longer be at risk of being deprived on account of their mother being cheating paternal fraudster. I would have ZERO problem with that.

But that is not what happened. "Child support" is NOT fair the way it is administered & overseen by the courts & this man is being made to continue to be victimized by this woman's fraud without any real hope of the criminal receiving any sort of justice. The judge could hve Easily rendered a decision that both looked out for the interests of the children AND dealt with giving the man some degree of justice regarding the woman's FRAUD.

Of course, we would be foolish to ever expect that sort of justice from our legal system.

UNFortunately, we have judges and courts, whose decisions are designed to pander to the sensibilities of the likes of MLAM & the "women can never do wrong" White Knight brigade who seem to like nothing better than to see men emasculated and frustrated by system that has no interest in being fair to them.

 

[hunter001]

That being said, I would launch the mother of all civil suits against the mother, and have her charged with fraud and every other thing I possibly could. To play someone to that extent is just plain evil, there is no other word for it. I can't even imagine discovering that my past 'X' number of years has been a fraud, and that I have been played for money.

Assuming you could sue which I somehow doubt, what you be accomplished other then making lawyers rich and possibly messing with your children s lives? (Having previously stated that you would still love them, ...)

If you win the money you lose the kids. If you lose the suit, there is a good chance you lose the kids. Even if you win the suit you will lose the right to see the kids (you say you love) and have write them completely out of you life.

Personally for me it would be too much to give up for the money I would recover. Personally I can't place a dollar figure on the relationship with my kid but everyone has different values.

 

[themexi]

Assuming you could sue which I somehow doubt, what you be accomplished other then making lawyers rich and possibly messing with your children s lives? (Having previously stated that you would still love them, ...)

If you win the money you lose the kids. If you lose the suit, there is a good chance you lose the kids. Even if you win the suit you will lose the right to see the kids (you say you love) and have write them completely out of you life.

Personally for me it would be too much to give up for the money I would recover. Personally I can't place a dollar figure on the relationship with my kid but everyone has different values.

I mostly understand your point but one thing........

Do the kid's not Know that all of this happened as a direct consequence of their mother spreading her legs for & getting knocked up by another man?

Isn't it possible that they may be s justifiably pissed at their mother's lie every bit as much as the father is?

Isn't it the littlest bit possible that they may love their father enough to see that HE might deserve a little justice?

ow can anyone be sure with the information given that the kids & the father won't get together to sue the fuck out of this paternally fraudulent bitch & be done with her?

 

[hunter001]

I mostly understand your point but one thing........

Do the kid's not Know that all of this happened as a direct consequence of their mother spreading her legs for & getting knocked up by another man?

Isn't it possible that they may be s justifiably pissed at their mother's lie every bit as much as the father is?

Isn't it the littlest bit possible that they may love their father enough to see that HE might deserve a little justice?

ow can anyone be sure with the information given that the kids & the father won't get together to sue the fuck out of this paternally fraudulent bitch & be done with her?

Clearly some would put pride and $$ ahead of the welfare of the kids. Either way I am saying I would not. Like I said before everyone is different.

I won't go point for point with you because it is late and it really isn't worth it to me. For me I don't give a shit who the real father is of my kid (I am fairly certain it is me but I wouldn't be completely shocked if it was someone else.) As far as I am concerned nothing is going to come between me and my kid, not my pride, not $, ...

As to how my kid would react? I have no clue. All the other shit aside I would assume my kid would feel lost and abandoned by the person who has pledged his unconditional support and love. Again everyone's different.

 

[a 1 player]

Assuming you could sue which I somehow doubt, what you be accomplished other then making lawyers rich and possibly messing with your children s lives? (Having previously stated that you would still love them, ...)

Yes, the lawyers will get rich, they always do.
By suing a person who has frauded you, has nothing directly to do with the children. Yes they will be affected, no doubt about that, but it has nothing to do with a persons love for them. Would it be different if the custodial parent were charged for fraud by another person? Not really, she might still have to pay a huge amount of money or do jail time, which would still directly affect the children. Unfortunately, life is cruel and there are not always happy endings, and more often than not children are involved. That should not stop someone from being walked over.

If you win the money you lose the kids. If you lose the suit, there is a good chance you lose the kids. Even if you win the suit you will lose the right to see the kids (you say you love) and have write them completely out of you life.

If I win the money, I do not lose the kids. To my kids I will always be dad, and if the courts rule for what is in the best interest of the children, (which is what they are supposed to do), access will not change. I already have a legal document stating how much time I can have with them. Again, being who I am, if I were to recoup the money, it would go to the kids, but it would go DIRECTLY to the kids, not to support the fraudulent mother.

I think we are on a different page here, in terms of thinking that the money and the children are not mutually exclusive. I think they are. I don't see it as being an either/or situation.

Personally for me it would be too much to give up for the money I would recover. Personally I can't place a dollar figure on the relationship with my kid but everyone has different values.

I think in time the children would understand it, if the 'father' still showed the love and support that he did before. Of course, if the father just wanted to wash his hands of the children, then he is a sad, sad person.

Then there is also the chance that the children would lose respect for the mother, as I would sure not want to be lied to my whole life as a child with regards to who my 'real' father is.

 

[hunter001]

If I win the money, I do not lose the kids. To my kids I will always be dad, and if the courts rule for what is in the best interest of the children, (which is what they are supposed to do), access will not change.

Good luck with that. If you sue the mother over the paternity of the kids, I think your access would be shutdown.

I think in time the children would understand it, if the 'father' still showed the love and support that he did before. Of course, if the father just wanted to wash his hands of the children, then he is a sad, sad person.

But he isn't showing the support, he is saying fuck you aren't my kids I want my money back.

 

[hunter001]

I have seen an old man (ex's father - peace of ...) literally go to the grave over statement he made to his daughter (ex's sister) about how is didn't think she was his biological daughter. He went to the grave without really knowing. She never spoke to him again 20 years +, she didn't see him on his death bed (the other kids did),... The old man wanted to make up, see his grandchildren, ... To this day the ex's sister still has issues...

Will never happen to me.

 

[Thousand]

It seems to me that if you have children, and there is no one else but yourself who takes care of them, you could commit crimes and have little consequences. This is the kind of message that our legal system is sending out to all Canadians.

 

[RTRD]

Which...

The fact that there WERE 2 "flavors of sperm she was ingesting at the time" should have introduced enough uncertainty for her to disclose, Fraud by an act of omission is still fraud.

...has NOTHING to do with her knowing that the kids weren't her husbands, which is what *I* said. She didn't lie...she assumed they were, and obviously was mistaken.

How do you know that I don't have a kid or kids based on my opinions? There are LOTS of different reasons why people could be married with kids & still old the opinion that blood is everything when it comes to offspring. There are many cultures that have opinions that are different than yours....

I don't. Hence I asked. But, in lieu of an answer, i have to go with what experience and rational cognitative thought processes tell me.

But of course.... none of them can be right if they neither agree with you of fit into your personal little system of pigeonholing. What's a couple thousand years of human cultural development across the globe in comparison to the massive & benevolently sensitive liberal intellect that is MLAM?

I don't recall you couching your comments or opinions as being "culturally specific"...you simply declared yourself right, period.

But then, of course being the astonishingly xenophobic, misogynistic, paranoid ultra radical right wing "mexi", what else is there to assume other than you are right, and all others are wrong, lesser than and less pure?

 

[RTRD]

Which...

Oh... and another thing... I don't know if you're married & unlike you I don't see it as my business to know... But if you are then you should know that fucking someone else behind your spouse's back may not technically be "lying" if you somehow manage to never have to utter a single mistruth regarding the affair but it IS still deception.

...still doesn't mean she KNEW the kids were not from the loins of her husband, and goes back to my point that all this is gnashing of teeth over an infidelity that happened 16 years ago. What difference does that make now, save to punish people?

 

[RTRD]

Lol...

I mostly understand your point but one thing........

Do the kid's not Know that all of this happened as a direct consequence of their mother spreading her legs for & getting knocked up by another man?

Isn't it possible that they may be s justifiably pissed at their mother's lie every bit as much as the father is?

Isn't it the littlest bit possible that they may love their father enough to see that HE might deserve a little justice?

ow can anyone be sure with the information given that the kids & the father won't get together to sue the fuck out of this paternally fraudulent bitch & be done with her?

...dude...their KIDS!! They haven't yet learned to hate anything with a vagina...ESPECIALLY their mother!!!

"Kids...I think your mother is a lying bitch, and I'd like you to join me in hating her, even though she has done no harm to you"

LOL!!!!!!

 

[RTRD]

Exactly...

I have seen an old man (ex's father - peace of ...) literally go to the grave over statement he made to his daughter (ex's sister) about how is didn't think she was his biological daughter. He went to the grave without really knowing. She never spoke to him again 20 years +, she didn't see him on his death bed (the other kids did),... The old man wanted to make up, see his grandchildren, ... To this day the ex's sister still has issues...

Will never happen to me.

...my point.

What is to be gained by being so hurtful to your children over money?? over a row you have with the child's MOTHER???

Only an angry, petty man would tell their children "I am not" or "I do not believe I am" your father.

Your former father in law did nothing but make himself miserable while hurting another. And to what benefit?

 

[RTRD]

But dude...

That being said, I would launch the mother of all civil suits against the mother, and have her charged with fraud and every other thing I possibly could. To play someone to that extent is just plain evil, there is no other word for it. I can't even imagine discovering that my past 'X' number of years has been a fraud, and that I have been played for money.

...being played assumes that the error of paternity was intentional. Nothing in the article in question indicates that, and I am not sure how that could EVER be the case under the circumstances described. Women has had sex with two different men on at least one occasion. She finds herself pregnant. How is she supposed to be certain who the father is?

On the assumption you feel like you have been a good father to your kids...doesn't seem like she made the right choice? What would be the alternative...to toss her marriage into disarray while pregnant, leaving her and two blameless kids in much worse shape.

Understand - I am not defending the infidelity. I AM NOT.

But - deal with THAT. The sin is the infidelity...not the choosing of the person whom she wanted to raise kids with.

That is why all this angst is such hogwash...all it comes down to is wanting to punish the woman for being unfaithful 16 years ago...and if I read correctly, 8+ years after the marriage ended. What does THAT have to do with the welfare of the kids?

Oh, but the money goes to the kids people would say. Bullshit! I can say without a doubt that the thousands of dollars I pay a year does not entirely go to the children. It goes to increase the standard of living of my ex-wife indirectly through my children. I have never had to option to provide formula, diapers, clothing, food or anything else that goes directly to the children. What I have done is pay for a house that is larger than my kids need, vacations for the ex-wife that she would not otherwise be able to afford, and meals out at least three times a week. Remember, the person getting support does NOT have to explain where the money is being spent.

This to me is where the issue is. I would have NO PROBLEM paying half the amount of support to my ex-wife and the other half going into an RESP for the kids. And I would have no problem of receipts were provided showing where the money is going to. All I can say is that when we were together, the kids did not cost a fraction of what I was paying, and that is not including the money she is getting from the government being a single parent, and the extra amount I pay for extra carricular activities and daycare.

I get all that. As someone who has a monthly 4 figure child support nut, I really do. Though I would also say that my kids mother is not frivolous...that my child support is spent on my kid with what I'd say is about 80% effectiveness / efficiency. Now, that is more than likely probably a direct result of the woman I chose to marry...someone who has never demonstrated a materialistic bent, and who also makes a more than decent wage herself, and accordingly really can afford the "lifestyle" in which she lives. It also is probably a result of the fact that my kid is in private school - I know how much his tuition is, I know how much my child support is, and I know how the amount of that support is calculated, based on the cost of that tuition, my ex's income, etc. I can live with the math, especially since MY ex doesn't hit me up for any other cash...yet manages to dress, feed and care for the boy in the professional middle class lifestyle that I would expect, given her income. I can very honestly say I know where my money goes, and I am pleased with how it is being spent.

Yes, it is fraud by using the children to artificially increase ones standard of living, and the woman should be punished accordingly, both through charges of fraud, and through a very large civil legal suit.

I agree, but I didn't see anything in the article to suggest that was what was happening here. Beyond that, since (in Ontario) there are formulas for support, I don't see the point in punishing the kids because a guy is upset with the province of Ontario...

 

[RTRD]

Yes....

By suing a person who has frauded you, has nothing directly to do with the children. Yes they will be affected, no doubt about that, but it has nothing to do with a persons love for them. Would it be different if the custodial parent were charged for fraud by another person? Not really, she might still have to pay a huge amount of money or do jail time, which would still directly affect the children. Unfortunately, life is cruel and there are not always happy endings, and more often than not children are involved. That should not stop someone from being walked over.

...it does. The difference is that the kids know it is the actions of their father that is leading to the "impact".

Like "Hunter" said, my relationship with my kid is priceless. I could never have him knowing that my actions are the reason his mother had to take a second job, and isn't home anymore, the reason why they had to move into a less safe neighborhood, leaving his school and friends behind, the reason why they have to eat KD dinner three times a week.

MAYBE you do this "Civil Suit" thing after the kids are adults...but I am guessing they will still hate you then.

The key is - while a guy might view his ex as the enemy, she will always be the mother to his kids. And those kids are NEVER going to be happy watching their father beat up their mother. And they aren't going to be terribly empathetic or sympathetic about what you might consider a wrong that occurred before they were even born, and is the reason for their existence.

If I win the money, I do not lose the kids.

I think you would, as spoken to above.

I think we are on a different page here, in terms of thinking that the money and the children are not mutually exclusive. I think they are. I don't see it as being an either/or situation.

The money is what provides them with their livelihood. No way can you change one without impact to the other. And if that impact is negative, they will hold you accountable.

I just don't see any kid thinking to himself that the infidelity between you and his / her mom is justification for having to wear handmedowns, and not being able to go on the annual school ski trip.

I think in time the children would understand it, if the 'father' still showed the love and support that he did before.

I seriously, seriously, doubt they would.

Then there is also the chance that the children would lose respect for the mother, as I would sure not want to be lied to my whole life as a child with regards to who my 'real' father is.

This might indeed be, but I doubt they will see a reduction in THEIR standard of living and changes to live as they know it as being a fair outcome for HER actions, knowing that these changes were a result of YOUR elective actions.

 

[red]

I understand the ruling made by the judge but I can't say its fair to the "father".