Indian residential schools

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
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You completely and conveniently miss the point or don't understand the issue beyond your shallow, "pull up your bootstraps" myopic nonsense.

The issue of First Nations in Canada is both a legal and moral one. Until those issues are resolved, there can be very little progress.

Lands were taken under false auspices. Promises were made and never fulfilled. Laws were enacted that paint First Nations into a corner.

Look up the Indian Act, the various treaties and the obligations of the Crown and government to Canada's First Nations. Our government and monarchy has failed on almost every count.

Further, we have made it virtually impossible for First Nations to continue in either a traditional lifestyle or a modern "westernized" one by destroying traditional hunting, trapping, fishing, gathering lands and by not providing adequate access to health, education, drinking water/housing/infrastructure respectively. That is without bringing into account the issue of land ownership rights.

So First Nations are caught in a no-man's land in between.

Neither a "self-made" man like yourself or all of these heroic immigrants that you point to would just give up your or their birthright without the cover of 'status' - and that's the vicious circle First Nations in Canada are forced to exist in.

Try to understand the history (and perhaps gain a little perspective + empathy) before making bold, sweeping statements that really aren't relevant to the facts at hand. Or actually read the report of the the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to understand that your Toronto-Vancouver hypothetical quandary is insignificant and quite frankly, insulting, compared with what First Nations have dealt with for hundreds of years without resolution.
My "pull up your bootstraps" view stands.

If every other person from every other ethnicity and country can do it, so can Natives. Read page 2 and my parents voyage from crap ass commie country to getting to Canada. Lots of people were in the same boat and did the same type of thing bailing ship and getting their ass to places like Canada, USA, UK, Australia etc.... Back then people basically took the trip to whichever Western country would take them and had no clue what to really do when they landed except start from scratch. Anyone landing in Toronto (back then the biggest hub was actually Montreal), didn't even know if it was Yonge St or Young St.

Even though every city has its pockets of down and out areas, unemployed people and shady alleys, as a whole Canadian cities and towns are pretty good. There's a good level of tolerance between people, social services, low crime and job opportunities. That's why no Canadian city ever has pockets of the city that resemble US cities which are beaten up with abandoned and boarded up buildings and homes. Do you really think it's because all the people living in Canadian towns from all walks of life were born with silver spoons in their mouths with 200 IQs? Heck no. But when you live and work among others, it should often bring out the best in you because if you want to continue living decent, you got do well and keep up with everyone else. So in a way, success kind of fosters itself.

Don't think Natives are the one and only group of people who have issues. Not every person is born in Canada to middle class society getting a chance at good life from day one.

Everyone knows those reserves don't seem like great conditions to live in and the government takes forever to change things. So put 2 and 2 together and someone can either sit there and wait another 20 years hoping everything changes, or they can be proactive and just move somewhere else with better prospects like anyone else does if it seems greener on the other side of the fence. Their choice.

And if something magical happens and the government improves things, and the reserves transform into places that have good jobs, good schools etc..... in 10 years, then they can move back when things are better.

The government isn't forcing any Native to live on the reserve. If someone wanted to, they could move right beside you, me or anyone else in Canada. But if someone chooses to stay put, that's the choice they've made.
 

Karate

New member
Apr 18, 2012
28
0
1
You completely and conveniently miss the point or don't understand the issue beyond your shallow, "pull up your bootstraps" myopic nonsense.

The issue of First Nations in Canada is both a legal and moral one. Until those issues are resolved, there can be very little progress.

Lands were taken under false auspices. Promises were made and never fulfilled. Laws were enacted that paint First Nations into a corner.

Look up the Indian Act, the various treaties and the obligations of the Crown and government to Canada's First Nations. Our government and monarchy has failed on almost every count.

Further, we have made it virtually impossible for First Nations to continue in either a traditional lifestyle or a modern "westernized" one by destroying traditional hunting, trapping, fishing, gathering lands and by not providing adequate access to health, education, drinking water/housing/infrastructure respectively. That is without bringing into account the issue of land ownership rights.

So First Nations are caught in a no-man's land in between.

Neither a "self-made" man like yourself or all of these heroic immigrants that you point to would just give up your or their birthright without the cover of 'status' - and that's the vicious circle First Nations in Canada are forced to exist in.

Try to understand the history (and perhaps gain a little perspective + empathy) before making bold, sweeping statements that really aren't relevant to the facts at hand. Or actually read the report of the the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to understand that your Toronto-Vancouver hypothetical quandary is insignificant and quite frankly, insulting, compared with what First Nations have dealt with for hundreds of years without resolution.
+1
Thank you Capt. Fantastic for speaking the truth with empathy.
 

Captain Fantastic

...Winning
Jun 28, 2008
3,273
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36
Don't think Natives are the one and only group of people who have issues. Not every person is born in Canada to middle class society getting a chance at good life from day one.

Everyone knows those reserves don't seem like great conditions to live in and the government takes forever to change things. So put 2 and 2 together and someone can either sit there and wait another 20 years hoping everything changes, or they can be proactive and just move somewhere else with better prospects like anyone else does if it seems greener on the other side of the fence. Their choice.

And if something magical happens and the government improves things, and the reserves transform into places that have good jobs, good schools etc..... in 10 years, then they can move back when things are better.

The government isn't forcing any Native to live on the reserve. If someone wanted to, they could move right beside you, me or anyone else in Canada. But if someone chooses to stay put, that's the choice they've made.
Once again, you have shown that you do not comprehend the issue beyond your self-centred, myopic and narrow viewpoint and instead just keep repeating tired old homilies about the trials and tribulations of immigrants.

It appears you simply don't understand the legal repercussions of "opting out" of Indian status along with the complexities of the Indian Act + individual treaties and the government's responsibilities under both, or you don't care and are simply talking out of your ass...ets.

If you can't see the difference between the Canadian government stealing the First Nations peoples land; kidnapping, raping, murdering and mentally damaging their children; attempting cultural AND actual genocide and then hiding behind archaic laws and treaties while not even living up to their reciprocal legal and moral obligations to this very day - and someone choosing to come to Canada, then you really are a lost cause. Probably because you believe "the Indian problem" should just go away and that they should assimilate to your societal ideal or die.
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
2,926
8
38
Once again, you have shown that you do not comprehend the issue beyond your self-centred, myopic and narrow viewpoint and instead just keep repeating tired old homilies about the trials and tribulations of immigrants.

It appears you simply don't understand the legal repercussions of "opting out" of Indian status along with the complexities of the Indian Act + individual treaties and the government's responsibilities under both, or you don't care and are simply talking out of your ass...ets.

If you can't see the difference between the Canadian government stealing the First Nations peoples land; kidnapping, raping, murdering and mentally damaging their children; attempting cultural AND actual genocide and then hiding behind archaic laws and treaties while not even living up to their reciprocal legal and moral obligations to this very day - and someone choosing to come to Canada, then you really are a lost cause. Probably because you believe "the Indian problem" should just go away and that they should assimilate to your societal ideal or die.
I'm not a lost cause at all. And my parents and any other person who put in the effort to forgo lousy conditions and make way halfway across the world to a better life aren't lost causes either.

You get what you earn in life. Sure, sometimes there's bad luck and you get struck by bus, or you get lucky and hit the lottery, but for the most part a person gets in life what they put into it. Pure and simple.

Don't you see how silly it is? You have millions of people with nothing from decades ago, who pack their bags, say goodbye to friends and family and gamble that Canada (or another western country) is better. And for the most part it is. On the other hand, you have Natives who know more about Canada, are closer to the main cities, get some perks as per the laws, yet don't succeed as much compared to many people couldn't speak one word of English or French and were broke. Pretty sad.

The reason why people can do well out side of reserves is multi-fold. But the the origins of hoping for a better life isn't something that happens over night. It takes time and effort. And if done well helps their people, people as a whole, and cities as a whole.

All the people bolting from their crappy countries don't expect to magically turn into vice presidents when they land. What they do though is put in hard work and try to make everything work. Some people did well right off the bat. Some people had limited skills and became labourers, while the wife stayed home or became a waitress or seamstress. Not exactly millionaire making jobs here. But it doesn't matter. They key is long term thinking. And if the people coming over can't make it big, then at least a foundation there in country and city where there is opportunity so that their kids and their grandkids can succeed better than them and at a better chance then in their old country whose prospects were dim.

One thing the millions of people fleeing could have done is just not move at all. Just sit there and hope things get better naturally over time. But they didn't. They got up and left.

You make it sound like the government is forcing Natives to stay on reserves. They aren't. everyone in Canada has freedom to stay or leave as they please. If someone wants to move to the Arctic Circle, go ahead.

But hey, if many Natives prefer to live on reserves, that's their choice. Conditions aren't really changing and the government isn't exactly firing on all cylinders to change that either. So it's up to them to sit there and like it or to get up and leave. Sitting there just means little progress while everyone else including Europeans, Asians, East Indians, Jamaicans, Spanish, etc..... are all passing them by. Hey, personally I wouldn't want to sit there and watch everyone whiz by me. But if many Natives prefer to stay on reserves, no government official is going to force them to move.

I'm not the one looking for government handouts. I pay enough tax, which I get zero back in terms of direct benefits. Never collected one EI check, been to a hospital maybe once in my life, never needed to call police or firemen etc.... Even got laid off years back, but got a job a month later, so I didn't even get a chance to get one $400 EI check. $100,000s of tax paid, and I couldn't even get a measly freebie $400 back. What I could have done is just chill out a while and attend those EI training sessions and fill out forms. Prove to the office I'm looking for jobs here and there and I'd get $400 every week for months. I also got a little bit of severance too.

Forget it. Screw that. I'd rather get a job again and get back to work.

Some people would have chilled out getting EI and milking the severance till it ran out. I preferred getting back to work asap. And because I scored a job fast, that severance was like a bonus payout. This work ethic probably came from my dad, where he'd nag us to go outside or get a summer job etc.... "and don't lie around the house". It all comes down to what you put into life. I guess dad was right after all.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
79,966
8
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
Two things are undeniable:

1. A lot of shitty things were done to natives in the past

2. Natives have not taken enough responsibility for their situation in the present

Most times the debate boils down to who to blame for the situation natives are in, but this will ever remain true: nobody can help you if you don't help yourself first.

No amount of programs or damages or whatnot will fix the problem. Only natives themselves can fix the problem.

Yes we as Canadians owe something for the wrongs done, but even if we pay in full and then some, which we should and honestly we spend a lot of tax money on native programs, the situation for natives won't improve if native Canadians don't take ownership of their communities and their lives.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,065
1
0
Two things are undeniable:

1. A lot of shitty things were done to natives in the past

2. Natives have not taken enough responsibility for their situation in the present

Most times the debate boils down to who to blame for the situation natives are in, but this will ever remain true: nobody can help you if you don't help yourself first.

No amount of programs or damages or whatnot will fix the problem. Only natives themselves can fix the problem.

Yes we as Canadians owe something for the wrongs done, but even if we pay in full and then some, which we should and honestly we spend a lot of tax money on native programs, the situation for natives won't improve if native Canadians don't take ownership of their communities and their lives.
#1,...absolutely
#2,... As is common in a lot of cases,...were its easier to blame,...than make an effort.

FAST
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
2,926
8
38
Once again, you have shown that you do not comprehend the issue beyond your self-centred, myopic and narrow viewpoint and instead just keep repeating tired old homilies about the trials and tribulations of immigrants.

It appears you simply don't understand the legal repercussions of "opting out" of Indian status along with the complexities of the Indian Act + individual treaties and the government's responsibilities under both, or you don't care and are simply talking out of your ass...ets.

If you can't see the difference between the Canadian government stealing the First Nations peoples land; kidnapping, raping, murdering and mentally damaging their children; attempting cultural AND actual genocide and then hiding behind archaic laws and treaties while not even living up to their reciprocal legal and moral obligations to this very day - and someone choosing to come to Canada, then you really are a lost cause. Probably because you believe "the Indian problem" should just go away and that they should assimilate to your societal ideal or die.
Just flipping through wikipedia and found some interesting links about immigration. Unfortunately, some of the facts only pertain to recent times (2000 and newer, as opposed to the status of people from early/mid 1900s).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_immigration_to_Canada

By the looks of it, my "lost cause" parents can be classified as "fourth wave" immigrants in the "refugee" or "other" class of immigrants.
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
2,926
8
38
Two things are undeniable:

1. A lot of shitty things were done to natives in the past

2. Natives have not taken enough responsibility for their situation in the present

Most times the debate boils down to who to blame for the situation natives are in, but this will ever remain true: nobody can help you if you don't help yourself first.

No amount of programs or damages or whatnot will fix the problem. Only natives themselves can fix the problem.

Yes we as Canadians owe something for the wrongs done, but even if we pay in full and then some, which we should and honestly we spend a lot of tax money on native programs, the situation for natives won't improve if native Canadians don't take ownership of their communities and their lives.
#1,...absolutely
#2,... As is common in a lot of cases,...were its easier to blame,...than make an effort.

FAST
Exactly.

Nobody is saying there's some crappy stuff going on on reserves, or what happened in the past.

But to improve themselves seems like an easy slam dunk. You can either get off your butt and strive for something better. Or sit around in current conditions and hope conditions improve fast from external factors, despite government stuff taking forever to process. Because hoping that Natives all hold hands and mutually agree to improve themselves doesn't seem like it's happening any time soon, thus the requests for more assistance.

Even logistically it is impossible. It would probably take billions of dollars and 50 years for the gov to sent construction crew to rebuild everything nice and modern. It takes years for the city to finish renovating strips of highway, so to do mass improvements to infrastructure and social services across all the reserves would take forever.

Even if they committed to doing so (which they never would), there probably isn't even enough skilled labour, construction and contractor crews to cover it all anyway.

So given that, forget it. I'd bolt for greener pastures. If different groups of people can all intermix and live together in big cities like Toronto or Montreal, then that's where I'm heading. Big cities are where the most jobs are too (quantity and variety), so if anyone wants to get off their ass and get a job, best thing to do is scope out the big hubs first like everyone does.
 

TeeJay

Well-known member
Jun 20, 2011
8,044
731
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west gta
That is a nice attitude, do you ignore any and all laws passed before you were born? Do you violate copyright and intellectual property rights granted before you were born? Do you respect borders on countries that were drawn before you were born?
That is a very silly attempt at a comeback
If a law said something was legal even 5 years ago and just changed today do you feel guilt for all the times you broke a current law that never existed in the past
lol

To use your own argument (copyright & intellectual property) at one time it was illegal to copy a work even as a backup (some studios went so far as to claim recording tv or radio would also be illegal)
Lucky for our sanity that was challenged and new (better) laws were implemented
 

TeeJay

Well-known member
Jun 20, 2011
8,044
731
113
west gta
A lot of sociologists would disagree thst it is as simple as pulling up your boot straps.

Let's say you live on a reservation. You want a better future for your kid so you encourage them to do well in school. Sounds like a great plan but your school is like an out of the movies inner city style environment.

Okay move off the res. What skills do you have? What rent can you afford? And lets not pretend there are aboriginals doing that. I am sure there are. My point is that it is a tough go.
So because a native is born on a reservation he is doomed? By this same logic all blacks, hispanics, and other minorities from less affluent neighborhoods are as well?

Even in your own example, I fail to see how an unemployed habitually drunk native on a reservation can possibly do any worse as an unemployed habitually drunk native in government subsidized housing collecting welfare in toronto
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
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So because a native is born on a reservation he is doomed? By this same logic all blacks, hispanics, and other minorities from less affluent neighborhoods are as well?
People in this situation have two key things they can do:

1. Sit there and assume that's all there is to life and there's no point trying anymore
2. See all the crap going on around them, not want to be part of it, and try to change their ways and get out. Like it or not, if you want a better life, it's best to leave all the people dragging you down behind. And that goes for anyone.... Natives, immigrants, or even someone living in a crap part of town and needs to move to a better part of the city

No guarantee that someone trying to get out will, but at least there's a chance. On the other hand, someone doing #1 is practically guaranteed to stay there forever.

You can't hit a homerun if you don't swing the bat. You might strike out, but at least you tried. And by the overall image of people on reserves, while some swing the bat, I see a lot of people standing there staring at pitches in hopes they can get enough walks. Instead of putting the effort to drive home base hits, they prefer hoping the pitcher tires out and allows runs scored on lots of base on balls. No swinging of the bat, just wait and hope the pitcher collapses and scores the runs for you. In baseball, doing that strategy isn't going to get long term success. You'll be lucky to win 10 games a year doing that.

For poor people, the best thing to do is try to get out. Relying on the government with their slow-ass process, social services and puny benefits where EI, welfare etc..... basically equate to minimum wage isn't going to make someone a millionaire anyway. The point of social services is to lend a helping hand so you can get back on your own feet. That's why EI is capped at $400 or $500 a week. Even if you made $1 million salary, you are capped at $500. I'm not even sure how it works for guys in high salary ranges. They might even get zero. Not sure. The purpose isn't to treat those payouts as a substitute for lifetime job earnings. Shit, it would be great if everyone got $1,000 or $2,000 a week doing nothing! The money can be deposited direct to people's bank account, while every Canadian can watch TV or travel the world. But that's not the way the world works.

Now if people on reserves are expecting the government to pay a lot more than welfare type payouts, then good luck to you. They might, they might not. But whether they do or not doesn't solve the issue of effort and trying to get out. It just means a nice payout which doesn't mean much if someone doesn't put it to good use.
 
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