If prostitution were legalized, what would change?

[fuji]

There are no charges that can be layed against a woman found in an incall location or a client found visiting.

This is false. You will be charged under section 210(2) of the criminal code which reads "Every one who (a) is an inmate of a common bawdy-house, (b) is found, without lawful excuse, in a common bawdy-house [...] is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction."

It most definately is illegal in Canada to be in an incall. The sentence will not be as steep as for the owner but you will wind up with a criminal record just as surely if you are charged and found guilty.

You are correct in most of your other points, but the ONLY fully legal form of prostitution in Canada is the wholly independent outcall escort.

 

[smylee52]

True. The woman who was evicted from her condo had her property sized under the Provincial "Civil Remedies" laws. Essentially they stole her stuff and kicked her out of the Country.

EU

I also find these actions contemptible but nevertheless it was her prostitution that allowed the court to seize her assets . I'm only belabouring this point because it is important for SP's to know the risk of working out of a space they own .

 

[enduser1]

So if I don't have my pants down, and am armed with calculator & tax form in hand, and say "I was here to do her taxes", that would be for a lawful excuse, right?

Yes it would. However, you really better be doing her taxes.

EU

 

[alexmst]

This is false. You will be charged under section 210(2) of the criminal code which reads "Every one who (a) is an inmate of a common bawdy-house, (b) is found, without lawful excuse, in a common bawdy-house [...] is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction."

It most definately is illegal in Canada to be in an incall. The sentence will not be as steep as for the owner but you will wind up with a criminal record just as surely if you are charged and found guilty.

You are correct in most of your other points, but the ONLY fully legal form of prostitution in Canada is the wholly independent outcall escort.

Yes, Fuji is correct in this. If there was no legal problem with clients being found in incalls, Terbites wouldn't be discussing legalities as much since from the client's point of view we'd be home free for outcalls and incalls both, so long as we avoided the street scene (ie: open solicitation). Actually only outcalls are totally legal. Incalls, if raided, could result in legal problems for both the SP and client and owner of condo.

 

[Rockslinger]

Actually only outcalls are totally legal.

Are there some sex acts that are still illegal? For example, is Greek legal now? Note: All sex between homos is legal. They only persecute heteros.

 

[Rockslinger]

Rockslinger, you should start the 'Hetero-Pride' parade

Seriously, wasn't it illegal for even married folks to engage in Greek? Of course, homo sex was illegal for a 1,000 years until the gays started Pride Day Parade.

 

[genintoronto]

Are there some sex acts that are still illegal? For example, is Greek legal now? Note: All sex between homos is legal. They only persecute heteros.

I think you're talking out of your ass here Rockslinger (pun intended).

Gay and lesbian saunas are busted regularly under ridiculous charges, and transexual sex workers are typically more persecuted by the cops than cisgender sex workers.

Also, while not under the domain of the law, I have yet to hear about a straight couple being beaten up on the street for being straight or for "flaunting" their sexuality, whereas it is still dangerous in many places in Canada, even in some part of Toronto, to be openly gay.

 

[Rockslinger]

I think you're talking out of your ass here Rockslinger (pun intended).
Gay and lesbian saunas are busted regularly under ridiculous charges, and .

Seriously, I don't make this stuff up. Didn't 52 Division arrive unannounced and unwelcome at the Pussy Palace party a few years ago? Wasn't the end result that LE was forced to apologize, pay the ladies something like $300,000 and take "gay sensitivity" training? (Disclosure: I am not into the gay scene and only know what I hear in the media.)

 

[naughtylady]

..related to prostitution were repealed in Canada.

There would be fewer murdered SPs.
There would be fewer SPs assaulted.
There would be fewer SPs blackmailed, extorted and coerced
There would be fewer SPs ripped off.

Multiply these numbers BIG time for the USA and the few other dark age societies .

Too true, a SW cannot evaluate a client and watch her a$$ for LE at the same time.

I personally do not see SW ever ending no matter what the laws so as a harm reduction measure, I think a red light district is a viable solution: similar to the laws regarding locations of strip clubs.

I would love to see the bawdy house laws lifted and incalls being made legal... of course with some zoning laws.

Are there some sex acts that are still illegal? For example, is Greek legal now? Note: All sex between homos is legal. They only persecute heteros.

False: If you are under 18 years of age sodomy is illegal. Straight or gay. Therefore the homo age of consent is 18, hetero is 14. go figure.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[enduser1]

I personally do not see SW ever ending no matter what the laws so as a harm reduction measure, I think a red light district is a viable solution: similar to the laws regarding locations of strip clubs.

I would love to see the bawdy house laws lifted and incalls being made legal... of course with some zoning laws.



Naughtylady

I would like that too.

EU

 

[johnhenrygalt]

As for the tax evasion situation, licensing or registration as a prerequisite to a 'legal' operation would force some (not all of course just as it doesn't for other cash businesses) of that revenue to surface so to speak.

I think most of the sex trade would remain underground. As a case in point, the stripper's business is completely legal (assuming she doesn't perform sex acts) and subject to regulation and licensing, yet I have a suspicion that most stripper-earned income doesn't get reported.

Currently the massage business is legal and subject to licensing, yet I have never received an invoice with the GST/PST details after paying my fee. At my favourite spa, bookings are always made on paper and I've never witnessed the receptionist enter my payment into any records. Again I suspect much of this cash gets "forgotten" during tax season.

Independent outcalls are already completely legal. I've retained the services of a couple of these ladies, and always paid in cash. Never was I offered a receipt with GST/PST information. In Quebec, every person doing business under a name other than his own, must register the "trade name". The registry is accessible to the public by internet. I doubt any of the independent escorts in Montreal register their "trade names" (and they'd be foolish to comply with this law, since the registry would have their real name and address). So at least in Quebec, the parts of the sex trade that are already "decriminalized", are largely underground. I have no reason to believe that would change with complete decriminalization, legalisation or whatever you wish to call it.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

False: If you are under 18 years of age sodomy is illegal. Straight or gay. Therefore the homo age of consent is 18, hetero is 14. go figure.

The age of consent is 16 years provided the other party is not in a position of authority vis-à-vis the younger party. If such an authority relationship exists, age of consent is 18.

For 12 and 13 year olds, the prohibition is waived if the other party is less than 2 years older and not in a position of authority vis-a-vis the younger party.

For 14 and 15 year olds, the age of consent is waived if the other party is less than 5 years older and not in a position of authority

Age of consent for anal intercourse is 18. The age of consent is waived if engaged in between "husband and wife".

IMO, under current Supreme Court constitutional decisions, the caveat for "husband and wife" would be read by the courts as to include married homosexual partners. This is only my learned opinion, and until the courts pronounce on the issue, it is only speculation.

The ages of consent for homosexuals are the same as for heterosexuals - no distinction is drawn. A 16 year old can legally consent to homosexual sex provided no anal intercourse is involved. The age of consent for anal intercourse applies to homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. The term "anal intercourse" has not been decided judicially, but it likely requires penile penetration. Analingus is not intercourse, nor IMO digital penetration. I won't venture a guess as to how the courts would treat penetration with a penis substitute (vibrator, strap-on, cucumber).

There is an additional restriction on all anal intercourse. For it to be legal, it must be engaged "in private".

And "... an act shall be deemed not to have been engaged in in private if it is engaged in in a public place or if more than two persons take part or are present"

So ladies and gentlemen, if you are in a threesome, anal intercourse is a criminal offense. Incidentally, due to this provision, a majority of porn videos shot in Canada involve the actor and actress committing a criminal offense, as the presence of the cameraman makes the anal intercourse illegal. I doubt this law has ever been enforced.

 

[4player]

interesting

I wasn't sure which way my original post would be responded to but its been a very interesting discussion.

I think I maybe should have asked a slightly different question as what I was really interested in was whether or not the complete legalization of prostitution would bring about changes in the social acceptance of paying for sex.

Will there ever be a point where paying for a quick lay will be as acceptable as going to the local pub for a few drinks (I wish), maybe more realistically, as acceptable as going to a strip club?

On the other side of the coin, would being an escort/sp ever be as 'normal' as being a bartender or receptionist?

Personally, I hope the taboos about paying for sex and sex in general in north american society will change to become more accepting of the business. I'd like to think the members of TERB represent a fairly broad crosssection of the population and that most of us consider the members of the profession to be people who contribute a valuable service and who deserve the same respect as any other member of society, such that they should not need to be afraid of telling others what they do for a living.

At the same time I think bringing things out in the open will help bring in laws that will help prevent exploitation and human trafficing.

Is this a pipe dream? Will complete legalization (in both Canada and US) help accomplish this? Is western society's morality too tied to its religous roots for this to ever occur?

Thanks everyone for their responses

 

[johnhenrygalt]

Public acceptance would increase with legalization.

The law is a great tool for shaping society. First there has to be a vocal and politically active movement in support of a position, since no politician will put his electoral chances on the line to do something that is quite unpopular. Then a few laws start to be passed. Social views change with the changing of the laws - what was seen to be controversial becomes commonly accepted.

To a large degree this happened with smoking, racism, sexism and anti-homosexuality.

Once the laws start to get enforced, gradually people begin to agree with them such that today one would not openly say that one would not hire/patronize/do business with [insert ethnic group of choice]. Most smokers today will politely ask before lighting up and will not be offended if their request is denied.

Those who don't agree with the new "social consensus" are left to whine like little girls about "political correctness" oppressing them.

 

[Rockslinger]

Is western society's morality too tied to its religous roots for this to ever occur?

Western society is humankind's best hope. People in many parts of the world call western society decadent because our women are not covered head to to toe and we don't hang homos.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

A few examples of law influencing attitudes.

Witness the effect of "age of consent" laws within the escort/john community. There is nothing fundamentally different about a girl of 17 years 11 months and one who turned 18 last week. Yet a middle-aged guy who seeks out the younger girl will be castigated as a creep, paedophile, pervert and a few other adjectives. The guy seeking out the 18 year old may be viewed as being peculiar, but not depraved. This is the power of the law. Perhaps the outrage concerning the underage girl is self-interested as none of us wish to draw the attention of law enforcement to our activities, so the underage seeker is a threat to the community and must be thrown out. But to the extent that the outrage is "moral", it is an example of our attitudes being shaped by law.

Witness the change in the divorce laws. Partly through these laws, where "fault" need not be assigned prior to a judgement of divorce, there is considerably less social stigma attached to divorce.

Witness public attitudes to abortion, largely brought about (IMO) by changes in law.

Witness labour standares. If I agree with an employer that I will work overtime without pay, then reneg on the deal, and enforce my right to overtime pay, few people would castigate me as a liar, cheat and thief. Most will approve of my action because the law would be on my side.

Witness the motorcycle helmet law. A while back there was the case of the sikh who didn't want to wear the helmet. There was a terb thread about the issue. The majority voice was "conform to the law - wear the helmet". Due to a change in the law, attitudes have changed and wearing a helmet is seen as a civic duty.

There are many other examples. The law is a great tool to shape public attitudes. This is why it should (hopefully) be used wisely.

Edited to correct a typo

 

[Rockslinger]

Didn't 52 Division arrive unannounced and unwelcome at the Pussy Palace party a few years ago? Wasn't the end result that LE was forced to apologize, pay the ladies something like $300,000 and take "gay sensitivity" training?

I knew I'm not crazy. Here is what I found in Goggle. Under the 2004 settlement:
1) Toronto LE pays $350,000 to the lesbos.
2) Every single member of Toronto LE must take gay, lesbo and trans sensitivity training.

DO NOT MESS WITH THE GAYS, LESBOS OR TRANS!

 

[johnhenrygalt]

If her income is under $30K, there's no GST anyways for her to worry about.

The $30,000 threshold is for gross revenue, not income. Some girls may not exceed this but I think many do.

'Most' may still be underground but registration & licensing upon decriminalization would create an incentive to report more, maybe not all, but certainly not zero.

And what incentive would that be?

 

[guelph]

And what incentive would that be?

You would have an open source of income, for credit purposes & create rrsp room

 

[Angela@Mirage]

I think you're talking out of your ass here Rockslinger (pun intended).

Gay and lesbian saunas are busted regularly under ridiculous charges, and transexual sex workers are typically more persecuted by the cops than cisgender sex workers.

Also, while not under the domain of the law, I have yet to hear about a straight couple being beaten up on the street for being straight or for "flaunting" their sexuality, whereas it is still dangerous in many places in Canada, even in some part of Toronto, to be openly gay.

Agreed. Especially in New Brunswick.