I hate what RAP/HIP HOP has turned into (for the most part)

[S.C. Joe]

Never argue with an idiot, They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!

 

[Toronto Passions]

LOL... I dont have time to look up all rappers who are skilled musicians but you can start with "The Roots", Flava Flav is quite good on piano, Missy Elliot is a decent Vocalist...

How many musicians in Rock, Country, jazz or what have you have trained at Juillard? Is it even necessary to go to a school like that to be good??? Just because you didnt go to a prestigious school that makes you less of a musician?

-Trackmasters

-Timberland

-Q-Tip

-J Dilla

-Scott La Rock

-The Beatnuts

-Da Beatminerz

-Dr Dre

ect, ect, ect....that's off the top of my head (please pardon any spelling mistakes in the names) Ever since the late 90's, even Jelly Bean Benitez would be "looping."

It has nothing to do with genre anymore. Even guitar riffs in "band music" (dare I call it rock??) is sampled these days. I know for a fact that many guitar sounds are sampled sounds in the latest midi gear these days for a non hip-hop recording session with major labels.

 

[Back Burner]

Remember, we're talking about "rap producers" here. Maybe I should have made myself more clear. But enlighten me. Name 10 rap producers that play an instrument and are competent at it. Name 2 who trained at a recognized school of music like Berkley or Juillard.

Just off the top of my head all these guys play instruments.

The Neptunes

Scott Storch

Quest (The roots)

Timbaland

DJ Premier - one of the best ever plays guitar, drums, and keyboard.

J.Dila- mult insturments (RIP)

So think of this. I gave you 6 just off the top of my head.

The Berkley/ Juillard comment was just silly.

 

[Garrett]

The Berkley/ Juillard comment was just silly.

I am not sure I would call it silly. I agree that education is not a requirement to make "good music". However, training and theory are critical if you want to transcend a certain level.

I listen to rap on Sirius on occasion, sometimes as aural candy, sometimes to see if there is anything interesting going on (the hosts are usually, uhhh, interesting). For me the lyrics are generally a joke, even for artists considered to be "meaningful". The music and production is even worse. I detest sampling and find little art in it. However, who cares. None of this music is made for me, and every generation wants music that offends the previous one. Rap has fit the bill well there.

As for production, most production today is horrible, but especially in rap. There is zero art in sampling for me (I put it on the same level as karaoke). Compression, pitch correction, all make it sound horrible. The fact that recordings in the 50s/60s/70s are generally better than what is available now, given the technological improvements made since then, is ridiculous. Whoever wants to say rap production today is at the same creative level as someone who creates more "organic" music for me is ridiculous. My favourite musician of all time is Bill Evans. However, it took some education for me to have a better understanding of what he was doing. When I listen to rap, it is in general very simplistic melodies, anything interesting is sampled (aka ripped off), with ridiculous lyrics that are more bravado than singing talent. I think the problem is rappers, and people who listen to rap, want to validate it beyond what it is. I have no problems with bands that are bad players but make great music. Why do you need to dress it up? None of these guys are going to outplay Bill Evans, or Lenny Breau, or James Carter... but who really cares.

Whatever music you like, enjoy it. But just like snobbery that you have to go to Julliard is bad, so is anti-snobbery that does not give any attention to the importance of education, theory, and technique.

Oh yeah, I think the opening of the movie "Office Space" should be mandatory for any white guy into gangsta rap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHVFvWURKvg

 

[Back Burner]

My comment wasn't to insult but to only judge only by the same standards as any other music genre. If you only consider Berkley & Juillard as a standard for all musicians then so be it.

 

[The Cunning Linguist]

Just off the top of my head all these guys play instruments.

The Neptunes

Scott Storch

Quest (The roots)

Timbaland

DJ Premier - one of the best ever plays guitar, drums, and keyboard.

J.Dila- mult insturments (RIP)

So think of this. I gave you 6 just off the top of my head.

The Berkley/ Juillard comment was just silly.

Many "good" musicians are self taught. But in order to reach the next level of excellence, you need to study privately with a master, or attend a recognized school of music with an excellent faculty. You are not going to learn the things I spoke of jamming with your buddies in some garage, while scratching a record. Talent will only take you so far....then it's discipline, dedication to craft, and a good teacher. I used the names Berkley/Juillard just to illustrate a point as examples of excellent schools.

If you ask me, it's the engineer on the session who really makes the difference. He has to interpret what the "producer" really wants (make it more "shiny" sounding versus "go in at 10,200 HZ with a narrow band equalizer and give me 3db boost of gain).

 

[Mongrel4u]

Many "good" musicians are self taught. But in order to reach the next level of excellence, you need to study privately with a master, or attend a recognized school of music with an excellent faculty. You are not going to learn the things I spoke of jamming with your buddies in some garage, while scratching a record. Talent will only take you so far....then it's discipline, dedication to craft, and a good teacher. I used the names Berkley/Juillard just to illustrate a point as examples of excellent schools.

But how many entertainers now a days regardless of genre actually went that far in their schooling? Then I guess according to you they are no better than these rappers that you claim have no knowledge of music. Yet many these people are considered "great" arent they? Elvis is the "King" of rock and roll, Jimi Hendrix is arguably the best guitarist amongst the currently living and long since dead...Ray Charles was blind and broke when he was a young future legend...none of these people went to Berkley/Julliard. Yet they still command respect and made more than enough money...what else more do you want?

All the formal schooling in the world wont teach you discipline and and dedication..and good teachers are everywhere, you just have to be open and willing to approach them, they'd be happy to help someone with enthusiasm and passion.

I'm not knocking formal schooling, I just question the belief that its the only way to be great; what makes you great is whats inside. A tuition bill doesnt make you great it just makes you broke

 

[The Cunning Linguist]

Mongrel...it's interesting you used the term "entertainer".

As in "Cedric the Entertainer"?

Don't confuse musical talent with popularity with the masses. Do you think Gene Simmons should be mentioned in the same breath with Stanley Clarke?

 

[LancsLad]

Who else here is old enough to remember Noddy, with his Golliwog.

It was a childrens cartoon.


My how context changes over time.


Next someone's going to say you can't bum a fag anymore.



.


As you were



.

 

[Mongrel4u]

Who else here is old enough to remember Noddy, with his Golliwog.

It was a childrens cartoon.

My how context changes over time.

Yes a Children's cartoon that originated back when it was ok to be blatantly racist towards blacks so it wasnt a concern of theirs. It came from a time when blacks got paid less for the same work if they were lucky enough to even get it, had to sit at the back of the bus, couldnt drink from the same water fountain, was seen as "lesser", people would go around putting them down and calling them names like "spook", "jig", "nigger", "porch money", "yard ape", "coon", "wog", "jungle bunny", "spear chucker"...

So what would have been the big deal about "Noddy and his Goliwog" back then?

But I wouldnt expect you to fully understand that

 

[Mongrel4u]

Randal Graves: Since when did porch monkey become a racial slur?
Dante Hicks: When ignorant racists started saying it a hundred years ago!
Randal Graves: Oh, bullshit! My grandmother used to call me a porch monkey all the time when I was a kid because I'd sit on the porch and stare at my neighbors!
Dante Hicks: Despite the fact that your grandmother used it as a term of endearment for you, it's still a racial slur! It'd be like your grandmother calling you a little kike!
Randal Graves: Oh, it is not. My grandmother had the utmost respect for the Jewish community. When I was a kid she told me to always treat the Jewish kids well, or they'd put the sheeny curse on me.
Dante Hicks: What the fuck, man?
Randal Graves: What?
Dante Hicks: Sheeny's a racial slur, too!
Randal Graves: Oh, it is not.
Dante Hicks: Yes, it is!
Randal Graves: She never called any Jews 'sheeny', she just used to say sheeny curse a lot. It was cute!
Dante Hicks: It wasn't cute! It was racist!
Randal Graves: I disagree, man, she was just an old timer, that's the way people talked back then! It didn't mean they were racist... but my grandmother did refer to a broken beer bottle once as a nigger knife... you know, come to think of it, my grandmother was kind of a racist.
Dante Hicks: You think?
Randal Graves: Well, I still don't think porch monkey should be considered a racial term. I've always used it to describe lazy people, not lazy black people! I think if we really tried, we could re-claim porch monkey, and save it.
Dante Hicks: It can't be saved, Randal! The sole purpose of its creation, the only reason it exists in the first place, it to disparage an entire race! And even if it could be saved, you can't save it because you're not black!
Randal Graves: Well listen to you! Telling me I can't do something because of the color of my skin! You're the racist! I'm taking it back, you watch!
[customers enter]
Randal Graves: Hey, what can I get for you, you little porch monkey?... Its cool, I'm taking it back.

LMAO I loved clerks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6OselVRTsM

 

[LancsLad]

Yes a Children's cartoon that originated back when it was ok to be blatantly racist towards blacks so it wasnt a concern of theirs. It came from a time when blacks got paid less for the same work if they were lucky enough to even get it, had to sit at the back of the bus, couldnt drink from the same water fountain, was seen as "lesser", people would go around putting them down and calling them names like "spook", "jig", "nigger", "porch money", "yard ape", "coon", "wog", "jungle bunny", "spear chucker"...

So what would have been the big deal about "Noddy and his Goliwog" back then?

But I wouldnt expect you to fully understand that

How does that effect your bumming a fag????


Don't tell me that you still collect faggots to start fires????



.

 

[frankcastle]

I think the key here is that there are many different types of hip hop to describe hip hop as just bling and ho's is a gross simplification of a much broader genre.

I'm with blaze 69 and his taste. I'll have to look up anthony hamilton because he's the only name on that list that I was not familiar with.

 

[frankcastle]

Remember, we're talking about "rap producers" here. Maybe I should have made myself more clear. But enlighten me. Name 10 rap producers that play an instrument and are competent at it. Name 2 who trained at a recognized school of music like Berkley or Juillard.

Whoa. The best rock guitarists IMO would be eddie van halen, eric claption, joe satriani, jimi hendrix, jimmy page, pete townsend and keith richards.

None of them were trained at highly credited schools.

You could extend the same statement to jazz and blues as well.


Oh by the way....

Royal conservatory of music now offers courses on djing and mcing.

As for producers...... guys like Phil Spectre (spelling) and George can't remember his last name (producer for the Beatles) had immense influence on music as we know it today and I don't think they played a note on the albums that they are famous for.

To be a good producer you need to have a good ear for music not the ability to play instruments.

Producing is a talent and that's why each genre has highly sought after producers if it were easy than people wouldn't bother paying top dollars to hire them.

 

[frankcastle]

Once again another person who says 'you have no clue' but doesn't explain what one should look for or seek out to try and understand rap or hip-hop or what ever you want to call it.

How about taking the time and explaining to me and the good folks here on TERB what to look for to appreciate and try to gain knowledge of your type of music? Or are you just here to say that anyone who expresses an negative opinion of rap and hip-hop are trolls and 'have no clue' ??

Based on what I've read here, I've started to form my own opinion of people who appreciate rap and hip hop, and believe me it isn't a good one! Which is too bad because I would like to think that there are some decent rappers and hip-hoppers on this forum.

Have a nice day l

What to look for is hard to define. Some rap is notable for it's message (e.g. public enemy as a popular example), some is known for it's catchiness/danceclub value (e.g. outkast), some is known for crossing genres (e.g. run dmc with it's rock/rap crossover), some is notable for repacking an old beat into a new song (e.g. p diddy), some is known for it's speed and play on words (e.g. eminem), some is known for it's mystique and protrayl of a life that is not known to most people (e.g. tupac and biggie and the whole thug thing).

Like other types of music there are different emotions, messages, tempo and sounds. So unfortunately there's no one thing to look for because while you might find it in one type of hip hop you might not find it in another. Heck from song to song by the same artist for that matter.

Sorry for my lame use of examples I just wanted to pick people that are famous enough that a person who is not into rap might have heard of.

 

[frankcastle]

Talking Fast in rap is not an art. A majority of wrappers, 97% of them are nothing but uneducated, abusers and terrorists. They think they can make a quick buck, get quick fame, doing nothing but talk in a mic, like it was a giant cock. They intimidate and harm. And the ONLY reason this is happening is the small amount of existing corporate executives in a dying music industry abuse the system allowing thugs and gang leaders to be in control as NO ONE is buying "pop music" anymore.

In fact pop music and rock music, today, sounds just like the 80's, 90's and 00's. The 50's don't sound like the 60's. The 60's don't sound like the 70's. 70's don't sound like the 80's. But the 80's, 90's and 00's all sound the same. Like a bear market.

Terrorists! All rappers are F'n terrorists, should all be arrested and thrown into Gitmo jail.

Rap is crap!

Gyaos Baltar.

Wow I guess you've never heard of groups like the Fugees who met in college and don't really sing about being thugs and intimidating.

And to think the 80s and 90s and 00s sound the same is ridiculous. Try and slip some stuff from the 80s into a teenagers ipod and I'm sure they will notice that it is different.

 

[frankcastle]

As for the comments suggesting Alicia Keyes is whoring herself. She's doing it no more so than any other artist. You don't know what she's passionate about, what she thinks etc so it's a gross generalization to assume you know a thing about her other than what you're read.

Hey I respect her for taking time out of schedule to support social causes like HIV/AIDS. She certainly doesn't have to do that for publicity or free press since it seems like if you stumble around drunk and flash your panties you can make the news these days.

 

[frankcastle]

Sorry one last post (for tonight) on this whole thing.

If you don't like a genre of music isn't it possible that thoughts you have about it are just a little bit biased?

At the end of the day trying to pigeon hole the entire genre speaks more about exposure and disposition towards hip hop.

Besides art doesn't have a right or wrong answer so why do people feel like others must agree with them?

I really don't think anyone's going to change their views on hip hop because of what I type. However, on principle I couldn't allow people to make statements that didn't appear to come from an informed perspective.

 

[Mongrel4u]

Late to the party but good additions

 

[MixedNuts]

Race issues should not be discussed on this board. It always gets out of hand.