Toronto Passions

Hillary says it again - no evidence

Malibook

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One has to conclude that fuji really doesn't understand basic english. I mean he really can't be this stupid can he?
fuji's vocabulary is fine but he seems to have comprehension issues.
It is as if he can't read something with an open mind and his preconceived arrogance warps his perception.

It seems like fuji has been exposed to a lot of data but unfortunately memory does not equate intelligence.

fuji would likely do well on Jeopardy as it wouldn't matter what he thought about any of the information.
 

Asterix

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And you think that for this reason they lied? Note that you actually have to believe that the President and Secretary of State actually went on TV and lied about it. They were very emphatic in saying there was no evidence. They had all sorts of ways of diplomatically avoiding the question and saying other nice things about Pakistan if they'd simply wanted to mend the fences.



Or, more than likely, they're just arrogant.
They weren't simply trying to mend fences. I'm sure behind closed doors they are far more blunt with the Pakistanis. To be a fly on the wall for all of that. They were covering for the Pakistanis to deflect any repercussions within their own country. They're trying to say the Pakistan government was D and D. They also obviously don't trust them, for which I don't blame the Obama administration one bit, but still need their cooperation. Why is that so hard to get through your thick skull?

As far as the arrogant part, I'll leave that to you. You're the expert.
 

Malibook

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None of that is relevant to the legality.
And who the fuck are you to establish the World standards for strong reasons and unacceptable risk?

A 1 in 6 chance in Russian Roulette is an unacceptable risk to most people.

If the risks of the US informing Pakistan were 1 in 100, it is an unacceptable risk.
It doesn't have to be 51 in 100.

Even if there was only a 1 in a million chance that your wife would have been attacked, that doesn't mean that she felt perfectly safe and was just trying to piss you off.
The risk was unacceptable to her.
Your opinion is irrelevant.
So again all that matters is your opinion.
Are you like this in person?
 

fuji

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And who the fuck are you to establish the World standards for strong reasons and unacceptable risk?
You're changing the topic again--we first have to get past the fact that it was an illegal act, before we can start this new and different debate about whether it was an acceptable risk.

And by the way, it doesn't matter who the fuck I am. It's a fact that the law requires "strong reasons" and it's a fact that the US has "no evidence".

You don't like facts much, do you?
 

Malibook

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You're changing the topic again--we first have to get past the fact that it was an illegal act, before we can start this new and different debate about whether it was an acceptable risk.

And by the way, it doesn't matter who the fuck I am. It's a fact that the law requires "strong reasons" and it's a fact that the US has "no evidence".

You don't like facts much, do you?
Your understanding of these terms is not gospel and my question is directly related to the legality issue.

Strong reasons does not require definitive proof that the Pakistani President is complicit with AQ.
That would be the ultimate strongest reason and potential grounds for war.

Your absolute burden of such proof is relevant only in your arrogant demented mind.

Your tolerance for acceptable risk is very impressive with other peoples' lives on the line.
 

Asterix

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Your understanding of these terms is not gospel.

Strong reasons does not require definitive proof that the Pakistani President is complicit with AQ.
That would be the ultimate strongest reason and potential grounds for war.

Your absolute burden of such proof is relevant only in your arrogant demented mind.

Your tolerance for acceptable risk is very impressive with other peoples' lives on the line.
Take a knee brother. Fugi is only interested in an argument that sets him apart. That makes him seem to be unique. He'll also never backs down no matter what silly idea comes out of his keyboard. He will simply argue you to death to where no one can remember what the original point was. He's begging for attention and we're giving it to him. Shame on us.
 

Malibook

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Take a knee brother. Fugi is only interested in an argument that sets him apart. That makes him seem to be unique. He'll also never backs down no matter what silly idea comes out of his keyboard. He will simply argue you to death to where no one can remember what the original point was. He's begging for attention and we're giving it to him. Shame on us.
I think you are right.
I think fuji is a troll with a warped sense of humour.
He derives pleasure from pretending to be an idiot and he gets his jollies from people getting frustrated by his thickness.

It is hard to imagine someone actually being so dense and stupid but just in case he isn't acting I like to play with him. :biggrin1:
 

Malibook

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It would require at least some evidence.
The conditions required for this evidence to see the light of day will likely never be met.
Without a trial where the US is motivated to make their best case with no regard for US/Pakistani relations, we will never know what 12 rational people would have decided given all of the information.
Plus there is no incentive for anybody relevant to have such a trial.
fuji from TERB does not cut it.
 

fuji

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The conditions required for this evidence to see the light of day will likely never be met.
There isn't any evidence. Unless you are calling both the President and the Secretary of State of the United States liars.

Sooner or later this very basic concept is going to sink into your skull.
 

Malibook

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There isn't any evidence. Unless you are calling both the President and the Secretary of State of the United States liars.

Sooner or later this very basic concept is going to sink into your skull.
They didn't say they were wrong and there is absolutely no evidence to justify not informing Pakistan.

They didn't say there is absolutely no basis to not trust Pakistan implicitly.

They said there is no evidence of the magnitude that would be potential grounds for war.

Assuming that this must mean no strong reasons at all is a jump that only a delusional idiot would make.
 

fuji

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Specifically they said there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the upper levels of Pakistan's government collude with Al Qaeda. That is the polar opposite of having "strong reasons" to think that there is collusion.

That makes it illegal.

Now once you acknowledge that we can go on to discuss your claim that it was anyway still justified to leave them out of the loop. I disagree with that too, but there is no point to have that discussion while you are still failing on the basic facts.
 

rld

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I am simply pointing our that contrary to having the "strong reasons" required by international law the US has "no evidence" to justify its violation of pakistani sovereignty.

I note that Hilary could have refused to comment, or said that she won't discuss what the US knows, but she chose to say explicitly and positively that there was "no evidence" of collusion by the highest levels of the pakistani state. This is on top of the president having previously said the same thing so she is really making the point quite strongly.

note that what matters legally is what the us knew at the time of the attack and not what it learns later.
Wrong again.

All the US needed to do to take out OBL in Pakistan is know he was there. IT was completely legal.

I again suggest you try to articulate how you think this "strong reasons" doctrines works in this context. I have laid out my reasoning with sources in detail. You shuck, jive and try to mislead with partial quotes taken out of context.

I challenge you Herr Fuji to lay out a proper fullsome argument, in one place, as to why the act was illegal. So people here can discuss your theory. Please includes the sources of international law you are relying on.

I look forward to it.
 

Malibook

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Specifically they said there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the upper levels of Pakistan's government collude with Al Qaeda. That is the polar opposite of having "strong reasons" to think that there is collusion.

That makes it illegal.
You are wrong again.
How do you come up with this bullshit?

There are degrees to strong reasons and claiming that they don't have evidence of the absolutely most severe degree does not mean there are no strong reasons at all and this is certainly not the polar opposite.

Polar opposite would be accurate to describe your posts and logic or reality.

The US position is not, we were wrong, we had absolutely no legitimate reasons to justify not informing Pakistan of the OBL mission.
We are sorry.

The US position is that they don't want to fuel the perception that Pakistan is complicit and incompetent and untrustworthy.
OBL was a very unique special case and the tolerance for acceptable risk was exceptionally low in this instance.
 

fuji

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There are degrees to strong reasons and claiming that they don't have evidence of the absolutely most severe degree does not mean there are no strong reasons at all and this is certainly not the polar opposite.
To be clear they don't have ANY evidence WHATSOEVER of collusion. Hillary's phrase was ABSOLUTELY no evidence.

That means they do not have a little bit of evidence.

That means they do not have some troubling evidence.

That means they do not have a few clues or signs.

It means they have NO EVIDENCE.
 

rld

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To be clear they don't have ANY evidence WHATSOEVER of collusion. Hillary's phrase was ABSOLUTELY no evidence.

That means they do not have a little bit of evidence.

That means they do not have some troubling evidence.

That means they do not have a few clues or signs.

It means they have NO EVIDENCE.
The only EVIDENCE, required to make the strike legal, was that OBL was in Pakistan.

Are you denying he was there?
 

fuji

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The only EVIDENCE, required to make the strike legal, was that OBL was in Pakistan.
So, if a fugitive from American justice is found in Canada, that justifies sending in Seal Team 6 huh?

Bullshit and you know it.
 

rld

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So, if a fugitive from American justice is found in Canada, that justifies sending in Seal Team 6 huh?

Bullshit and you know it.
I am still waiting for your proper explanation of your legal argument with sources. Is this yours?

I have posted mine, in detail, and you have posted nothing to refute it on a legal or factual basis.

Your position on this issue remains hot air. You seem unable to distinguish between domestic policy and the ILOAC. You try to mislead, but it seems nobody is dumb enough to fall for it.

After your multiple legal errors, you think you might learn some humility or at least prudence.

Oh, and since I will not resort to your evasive, cowardly tactics, I will answer the question directly.

If OBL had been in Canada and Seal Team Six had been sent in to kill him it would be perfectly legal. Just the same as if members of the AQ militia got into Canada and attacked a military base, that would be legal as well.
 

fuji

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If OBL had been in Canada and Seal Team Six had been sent in to kill him it would be perfectly legal.
You are such an idiot. You REALLY want to defend this claim?

Your first mistake is in calling the "war on terror" a war. You then make the asinine claim that this means the conflict area extends to any country even remotely involved. I don't have time for your idiocy, really. You are a fool.
 
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