Hillary says it again - no evidence

[fuji]

Btw, is this possibly the second time you can admit you were wrong? Not asking for the moon here.

Why, you think I should start admitting I'm wrong, when I'm not wrong? That doesn't make much sense.

I think perhaps you should admit that it was an illegal act, and then we can move on to discuss whether that illegal act has had a large or small impact, which is more interesting.

 

[Malibook]

Yes he does. He then quite rightly chastizes the US military for not being more careful in its targeting.

The US does not ask for permission to conduct a drone attack.

 

[fuji]

The US does not ask for permission to conduct a drone attack.

Yes it does. The drone attacks are generally done with the consent and co-operation of the Pakistani government.

For example, see here, where a Pakistani general requested an increase in the number of drone strikes:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/20/us-pakistan-wikileaks-idUSTRE74J3UV20110520

 

[seth gecko]

The US does not ask for permission to conduct a drone attack.

You are correct sir - they already have permission!
http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/20/army-chief-wanted-more-drone-support.html

 

[fuji]

Ha Seth I beat you to that one

 

[Asterix]

Why, you think I should start admitting I'm wrong, when I'm not wrong? That doesn't make much sense.

I think perhaps you should admit that it was an illegal act, and then we can move on to discuss whether that illegal act has had a large or small impact, which is more interesting.

No, I think there are many times that we do this because we have nothing better to do. You more than me. Getting you to reconsider anything you have said is near impossible. You are throwing out bait on a hook. As I said, and as you have said, there is a point where legality doesn't matter.

 

[fuji]

As I said, and as you have said, there is a point where legality doesn't matter.

This was not one of those cases. The Pakistani President plainly could have been relied on. There was nothing but arrogant, imperialist thinking behind the decision to leave the Pakistani President out of the loop.

 

[Asterix]

This was not one of those cases. The Pakistani President plainly could have been relied on. There was nothing but arrogant, imperialist thinking behind the decision to leave the Pakistani President out of the loop.

And you know this how? Were you a fly on the wall?

 

[fuji]

And you know this how? Were you a fly on the wall?

We have the unequivocal word of the President of the United States, and now we also have the unequivocal word of his Secretary of State. They have outright said it.

Meanwhile you have nothing but unfounded internet speculation to back up your weird and controversial opposing view.

 

[Malibook]

Who the fuck are the Americans to do that? Just because they have a "subjective" feeling that the risk is too high they can violate another countries sovereignty? Bull shit. They need to have some pretty damn good reason before doing something like that--not some wishy washy subjective feeling that they don't like the risk. Hard evidence. Strong reasons.

Strong reasons does not require hard evidence that betrayal would have been a certainty.
The Americans could expose plenty of real and legitimate reasons why they did not trust Pakistan.
Even the radical idiots who oppose everything American can understand why the US would not tell Pakistan, unlike you.

This is a time for mending fences and building on a mutually beneficial relationship.
It is not a time to sever relations, cut aid, and impose sanctions.

Pakistan is not demanding an apology and hard evidence.
Who the fuck are you to think you are so deserving.
They returned the helicopter and are in talks to mend and move forward.

The ends may not justify the means but the results are highly relevant.
The difference between a highly successful mission and a failed mission with no OBL and collateral damage is like night and day.
Just because fuji perceives no difference is totally irrelevant and this issue is not the anti-American rallying cry that he thinks.

 

[fuji]

Strong reasons does not require hard evidence that betrayal would have been a certainty.

There is no evidence whatsoever of collusion. Not vague evidence. Not incomplete evidence. Not partial evidence. Not circumstantial evidence. Not telltale clues. Not signs.

No evidence. Whatsoever.

What do you not understand about that?

 

[Malibook]

There was nothing but arrogant, imperialist thinking behind the decision to leave the Pakistani President out of the loop.

So you think that Obama and his team had complete faith and trust in the PP and they just conducted the mission discreetly out of arrogance and imperialist thinking.

That says more about you than them.

 

[fuji]

So you think that Obama and his team had complete faith and trust in the PP and they just conducted the mission discreetly out of arrogance and imperialist thinking.

Yes.

 

[Malibook]

There is no evidence whatsoever of collusion. Not vague evidence. Not incomplete evidence. Not partial evidence. Not circumstantial evidence. Not telltale clues. Not signs.

No evidence. Whatsoever.

What do you not understand about that?

The Americans are making absolutely no effort to make any aspects of this case public.
Their relationship is far more valuable than satisfying your irrelevant need to see everything that they see.
The US and Pakistan are moving on.
What part of this is so difficult for you to comprehend?

 

[fuji]

You've changed the topic to how the US and Pakistan is dealing with the fact of an illegal American act.

It is a fact that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of collusion between the Pakistani President and Al Qaeda. Whether your like it or not, that means it's impossible that there are any "strong reasons" for leaving him out of the loop, and that makes the American act undeniably illegal.

But you are correct that Pakistan's government is not taking a strong stand on this issue. Note that Pakistan's people appear more concerned about it than the government.

Once we can agree the act was illegal, we can have an interesting discussion as to why Pakistan isn't taking a stronger stand against this illegal act, why they've been forced into co-operation with the United States, why they have accepted illegal violations of their sovereignty. There are good debates and interesting political ramifications there--not all of them straight forward and rosy for the United States.

 

[Asterix]

We have the unequivocal word of the President of the United States, and now we also have the unequivocal word of his Secretary of State. They have outright said it.

Meanwhile you have nothing but unfounded internet speculation to back up your weird and controversial opposing view.

Excuse me, but I haven't paid any attention to whatever is being said on the internet about any of this. I rely on something more basic called common sense. I couldn't give a rip over what the President or Secretary of State says publicly. They are playing their side of the street and I don't blame them. Weird and controversial? Huh. Guess i'm not alone on this board.

 

[fuji]

I couldn't give a rip over what the President or Secretary of State says publicly

That leaves you with no reasons for the things that you think. It's OK, if you are comfortable having no reasons for your beliefs. It's called faith. Many people believe things for reasons of faith, you appear to be one of them.

I on the other hand like to have reasons for the things I think.

 

[Malibook]

You've changed the topic to how the US and Pakistan is dealing with the fact of an illegal American act. It may or may not have been illegal.
When there is no attempt to make the case public, it is presumptuous to claim it was absolutely illegal simply based on the public comments that are made while trying to mend fences.

It is a fact that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of collusion between the Pakistani President and Al Qaeda. Whether your like it or not, that means it's impossible that there are any "strong reasons" for leaving him out of the loop, and that makes the American act undeniably illegal. Again, such evidence would likely not be made public but in this case I doubt the PP was complicit with AQ but it was not a given that he would give the ok and keep it to himself.
If OBL was not there and there was collateral damage, the PP would not have jumped under the bus or accepted being thrown there.

There are a lot of people in the intelligence community that know a hell of a lot more than you who can understand why Pakistan was not told, and it isn't simply American arrogance.
Even the radical idiots can understand the deep-rooted ties in Pakistan.
A lot of the idiots who don't understand would not be swayed by evidence anyways and the US/Pakistan relationship is far more important than the presumptuous demanding idiots.

 

[fuji]

What are you talking about, "no attempt to make the case public", are you on drugs? The case has been made in public, the President and the Secretary of State have been unequivocal that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of collusion between the upper levels of the Pakistani government and Al Qaeda. That case has been made. In public.

You are arguing against a fact at this point. It's been said, in public, by both the President and the Secretary of State.

It seems you simply don't want to believe the facts. Too bad for you.

 

[Malibook]

What are you talking about, "no attempt to make the case public", are you on drugs? The case has been made in public, the President and the Secretary of State have been unequivocal that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of collusion between the upper levels of the Pakistani government and Al Qaeda. That case has been made. In public.

You are arguing against a fact at this point. It's been said, in public, by both the President and the Secretary of State.

It seems you simply don't want to believe the facts. Too bad for you.

That is not the case as it would be made in a court of law.

These are public comments made to mend fences and save face.

If you think that this is the best US attempt to expose corruption and discredit and embarrass Pakistan, you are an even greater idiot than I ever imagined.