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Harpo accuses UN of anti-semitism.....

rld

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It's the crime of murder, literally, or attempted murder if you fail to kill anyone. Your notion that you cannot be charged because the person you were shooting at wasn't where you thought they were, or who you thought they were, is just plain wrong.
It's not analagous to civilian murder. Any person can murdered in the civilian context.

This crime can only be committed against a class of people. If no member of that class is present, the crime cannot be committed.

But I am still waiting for you text or case supporting your absurd proposition.
 

flubadub

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To prove something like that you'd likely need the attacker to confess to it, pretty hard to prove, so what we are talking about is largely academic--unless the attackers actually steps up and says, "Gee I really thought they were Palestinian civilians and I was intent on killing a few of those."
Oh, I see now, this is why you keep coming back to this definition. Because according to you, and your twisted little mind, you can therefore almost never prove that someone didn't think anyone was a civilian. By this definition, anyone can kill anyone in war and just say 'I thought they were not civilian' and then be absolved of murder. Regardless of what they based their belief on, as long as they think someone's not a civilian they therefore can kill them and thus, being a civilian is a moot point. So Israel can kill civilian police in their police stations (sorry to go back here blackrock) and Hamas can kill pregnant settlers as long as they all thought for some reason that their targets were not civilians.

You are justifying war crimes and attacks on civilians, as well as being wrong.
I suggest you spend a bit of time on the new ICRC international humanitarian law section, where they have a nice little database of all the appropriate laws, and see if you can find backing for this rather preposterous and sick bit of thinking.

http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/home
 

luv2eatpussy

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To my personal beliefs, there is still some anti-semitism in this world and it is well deserved. Read some background info on these billboards in the predominantly Jewish areas. The all of these funds / charities are tax free and a lot of them goes into military spending. Don't even get me into the US spending 3 billion dollars of their own money to buy new fighter jets for Israel. Israel's exemption from the NPT, despite having a nuclear weapons. Now they are claiming bloody murder on the Iranian's for seeking the technology as well. In my personal opinion, they are just as bad as the Nazi's, to what they are doing to the Palestinian people. They haven't learned shit.... now they are in a position of power, exerting it over another body with substantially less resources than they have. Many of the people killed by the IDF, should be considered war-crimes, as the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Before you even bring up anything about the Holocaust.... look at Jews today and their influence and power on the modern world/economy. I find the holocaust is used as "an excuse" to prove there is anti-semitism in this world. The Holocaust happened 70 years ago, we know there is still significant amount of anti-semitism in this world, but it does not stem from the holocaust, but modern day activities from their primary state Israel. How about we talk about anti-muslim/islamic/middle eastern discrimination? By far, today that is far more of a cause of concern in the modern day world.
 

rld

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To my personal beliefs, there is still some anti-semitism in this world and it is well deserved. Read some background info on these billboards in the predominantly Jewish areas. The all of these funds / charities are tax free and a lot of them goes into military spending. Don't even get me into the US spending 3 billion dollars of their own money to buy new fighter jets for Israel. Israel's exemption from the NPT, despite having a nuclear weapons. Now they are claiming bloody murder on the Iranian's for seeking the technology as well. In my personal opinion, they are just as bad as the Nazi's, to what they are doing to the Palestinian people. They haven't learned shit.... now they are in a position of power, exerting it over another body with substantially less resources than they have. Many of the people killed by the IDF, should be considered war-crimes, as the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Before you even bring up anything about the Holocaust.... look at Jews today and their influence and power on the modern world/economy. I find the holocaust is used as "an excuse" to prove there is anti-semitism in this world. The Holocaust happened 70 years ago, we know there is still significant amount of anti-semitism in this world, but it does not stem from the holocaust, but modern day activities from their primary state Israel. How about we talk about anti-muslim/islamic/middle eastern discrimination? By far, today that is far more of a cause of concern in the modern day world.
Well I am sure the ZOG has you on their list now...
 

fuji

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It's not analagous to civilian murder.
Correct. It is not analagous to murder. It is murder. That's why, say, Robert Semrau was charged with murder and not with some arcane war crime. War crimes tribunals come into play only when nations refuse to investigate their own transgressions. Generally it's left to the ordinary national courts, as in the Semrau case. In fact it's a violation of the ICC charter, for example, for the ICC to get involved in a case that has been competently handled by the local court system.

Of course if you were a real lawyer you would have known that.
 

fuji

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Oh, I see now, this is why you keep coming back to this definition. Because according to you, and your twisted little mind, you can therefore almost never prove that someone didn't think anyone was a civilian.
You fail at reading, and comprehension, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you should probably just give up on life.

We are talking about the pretty arcane case where someone thinks they are intentionally murdering civilians, but it turns out they were actually killing legitimate enemies instead. It's an academic example pretty far removed from anything in Gaza. As it's a topic that has nothing whatsoever to do with guilt in either Israel or Hamas you should probably just give up on trying to understand it.

Nobody disputes that you can shoot at people you reasonably believe to be the enemy; nor does anyone dispute that it's a crime to intentionally shoot at civilians. Well nobody except maybe you, and your love for the murder of Israeli civilians at the hands of Palestinian terrorists.
 

rld

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Correct. It is not analagous to murder. It is murder. That's why, say, Robert Semrau was charged with murder and not with some arcane war crime. War crimes tribunals come into play only when nations refuse to investigate their own transgressions. Generally it's left to the ordinary national courts, as in the Semrau case. In fact it's a violation of the ICC charter, for example, for the ICC to get involved in a case that has been competently handled by the local court system.

Of course if you were a real lawyer you would have known that.
You just keep making shit up. Are you delusional. Where did I say anything about which courts had jurisdiction over the offense.

By your logic a crime can be committed against a class of people who arn't even there!

I look forward to see you putting your gowns on and arguing that one.

Oh...I forgot...you are not entitled to wear gowns. Thanks god.

Still waiting for your first case or text in support.
 

fuji

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By your logic a crime can be committed against a class of people who arn't even there!
Correct. You can in fact attempt murder against someone who isn't there, or more accurately, isn't who you thought they were.
 

fuji

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I sense as migraine coming on for Rid.
Me too. Something along the lines of, "Gee I was wrong, but I made a bit shit out of myself, and now I can't figure out how to get out of it gracefully". It has happened to rld on a few threads now--go ahead, ask him about the Haddiths of Aisha.

You plainly can be charged with attempted murder for trying to kill someone who isn't there, if you make a positive act towards killing them, in the full belief that they are there, and that your act will result in their death.
 

basketcase

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To my personal beliefs, there is still some anti-semitism in this world and it is well deserved...
Nice statement. You think that some people hate the Jews but it's their own fault.

At least have the guts to accept your bias is because of you, not because of others. I guess you don't see antisemitism as a problem because you have no problem with anti-semitism.



If you want an explanation of why you are a racist (ar anti-semitic if you prefer) is because your whole statement is stereotypes with everything being "they". If you had a clue, you wouldn't blame an entire religion for things that some people do that you disagree with.
 

blackrock13

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Me too. Something along the lines of, "Gee I was wrong, but I made a bit shit out of myself, and now I can't figure out how to get out of it gracefully". It has happened to rld on a few threads now--go ahead, ask him about the Haddiths of Aisha.

You plainly can be charged with attempted murder for trying to kill someone who isn't there, if you make a positive act towards killing them, in the full belief that they are there, and that your act will result in their death.
Not what I meant at all. You've shown one more time you read something that's not there at all, but we're use to that.
 

basketcase

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rid did say that we'd be better off dealing with Hamas than Hezbollah but since they are in different regions (whether or not rid knows the difference between Gaza and Lebanon - and my reading of his posts suggests he didn't) it's pretty much irrelevant.



p.s. the only way that I see Hamas as being better than Hezbollah is that Hamas is less controlled by Iran.
 

rld

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Me too. Something along the lines of, "Gee I was wrong, but I made a bit shit out of myself, and now I can't figure out how to get out of it gracefully". It has happened to rld on a few threads now--go ahead, ask him about the Haddiths of Aisha.

You plainly can be charged with attempted murder for trying to kill someone who isn't there, if you make a positive act towards killing them, in the full belief that they are there, and that your act will result in their death.
No Migrane. No analogies. Just a clear recognition that since Fuji was just going to spout his unsubstantiated opinions with nothing but hot air to back them up, I was actually going to have to take a text off the shelf and argue from authority:

The Law of Armed Conflict, Solis, Cambridge University Press, 2010, p232-234 discussion of civilians:

"What LOAC forbids is making civilians the object of attack."

pg 309- When a combatant is accused of a war crime, and the victim is alleged to be a civilian, the prosecution bears the burden of proof that the victim was a civilian. (Prosecutor v. Blaskic, IT-95-14-A (20 July 2004), para 111

and the deal closers:

Prosecuter v. Kunarac at al It-96-23 & 23/1-T (22 Feb 2001)

3. The attack must be "directed against any civilian population" to constitute the offense.

425. The targeted population must be of a predominantly civilian in nature.

Prosecutor v. Galic It-98-29-T (5 december 2003) (relying on Blaskic)

42. ...the Trial Chamber observed in relation to the actus reus that "the attack must have caused deaths and/or serious bodily injury within the civilian population or damage to civilian property..."


Okay Fuji. Your turn. How about some texts or caselaw?

Of course, you won't have any, because your position is absurd, but you won't change your position because you are far too much of a fanatic.

But others might get some value out of the above. But feel free to keep making your dishonest murder analogies. At least you should thank me for introducing you to the concepts of mens rea and actus reus, things that clearly were not part of your knowledge base.

Maybe we can look forward to Oxford publishing "Fuji on how my world works."
 

blackrock13

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That's ok your posts are usually devoid of any real content. I'd say 1 in 20 max you've actually got something to say.
Coming from a time honoured practitioner of oil slick vacuous posts, there's not much weight behind your critiques.
 
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