Stockwell, Rona and Stephen were all so critical of the Liberals for signing Kyoto that there's just no way they'd go crawling back and admit they were wrong at this point. So my guess is that they'll come up with a few measures to reduce our carbon emissions and make it look like they're trying real hard. They'll try everything they can to look green without actually saying they support Kyoto. This is still a flip flop because a few days ago, they were planning to do nothing but chat about it until 2020 or 2025.Neverenuff$ said:
Harper's cabinet two step
- Thread starter Never Compromised
- Start date
I disagree.slowpoke said:
Harper's environmental policies are not based on opinion polls or he would have signed on to Kyoto as Neverenuff$ suggested. Harper has always been opposed to Kyoto and remains opposed today. There is no shift in policy.
Ultimately, the Canadian electorate determines the key campaign issues of any election. To ignore this would be political suicide. This is more a case of Harper being forced to offer his environmental plan sooner than he wanted.
The problem with politics is that it is very political
They believe putting all of our eggs in one basket (climate change), is not a good idea. I happen to agree with them.slowpoke said:
If you took the time to do a little research on the Clean Air Act, you would realize this statement is false.slowpoke said:
I didn't need to do any research on Harper's clean air act to know my statement ignores his other anti-smog air quality measures aka clean air act. But if Harper has now flip-flopped on the all-important issue of carbon emissions / climate change, why get sidetracked with all that other stuff? I'm just trying to stay on topic. LOL!lookingforitallthetime said:
As I said earlier, I don't believe he has flip flopped. There is no policy shift.slowpoke said:
Because it looks as though the environment is going to be a big issue in the next election, Harper is forced to address it and offer his plan.
Again, it's not a shift in policy.
Go ahead and disagree. But while you're at it, go ask a few political observers if they think Harper has the enough political latitude to now endorse Kyoto point blank. I think the consensus will be that he and Rona and Stockwell burned those bridges quite a while back. So the best Harper can hope for now is that the new enviro guy (Baird) will muddy up the water and come out looking green but a made-in-Canada shade of green rather than the hated Kyoto green.lookingforitallthetime said:I disagree.
Harper's environmental policies are not based on opinion polls or he would have signed on to Kyoto as Neverenuff$ suggested. Harper has always been opposed to Kyoto and remains opposed today. There is no shift in policy.
Ultimately, the Canadian electorate determines the key campaign issues of any election. To ignore this would be political suicide. This is more a case of Harper being forced to offer his environmental plan sooner than he wanted.
The problem with politics is that it is very political
Let's recap shall we? Harper never liked Kyoto. So he bad mouthed it to hell and back all through the election campaign. I don't know whether Kyoto was popular at the time Harper became CPOC leader or not but Harper won an election based in part on his oft-stated loathing of Kyoto. So Kyoto wasn't that all-fired popular or Harper would have lost. After Harper won his minority, he gave us the clean air act which said he was going to chat about emission targets for something like 14 or 19 more years and have some emission reductions in place by 2050. Only when Canadian opinion polls showed Harper how dumb he'd been to ignore global warming did he decide to dump Rona and quickly re-brand his CPOC as concerned about climate change and all that other good stuff they're now promising. Looks like flip-flop 101 to me. Smells like it too.
slowpoke said:
You believe Harper's opposition to Kyoto has somehow burned a bridge we can no longer cross. If that bridge is a tragically flawed agreement like Kyoto, I believe we would be better off not crossing that bridge again anyway.
As long as Harper continues to oppose Kyoto, he will have my vote. Is it safe to assume we will not get yours?
No. I believe Harper made so much noise about his opposition to Kyoto that, politically, he could never go back without getting slaughtered. We're still signed up with Kyoto and Harper would also take a big political hit if he formally ended our Kyoto participation. He's in Kyoto limbo which will be OK as long as he doesn't actually come out in favour of Kyoto or do anything to get us out of it either. He has to go along with it while he cuts our emissions and buys carbon credits because we're very likely to miss our targets. It'll drive him nuts.lookingforitallthetime said:
If he'd rejected Kyoto's targets but still showed leadership on climate change with new targets and a get-serious approach, I'd have supported that. But he lost me with his "do nothing until 2020 / 2025" shit. Lots of other Canadians feel the same. After that and all the nasty rhetoric from Stockwell and Rona, he looks like a dick now as he tries to gloss it over.
Sorry, your agrument, like Kyoto, is flawed. Kyoto demands industrial contries to collectively reduce greenhouse gasse by 5% of 1990's levels. Considering industrial growth, these figures will reach 30% by the year 2010. All the while, countries like India, China and Australia will not be required to meet the same standards. In some cases, they will be allowed up to a 10% increase!bbking said:
A commitment to Kyoto will most definately cost the Canadian tax payer a lot of money.
You are showing your political bias here. One of the largest contributors to CO2 is the automobile. In fact, the more efficient the vehicles operate, the higher the levels of CO2. Perfect combustion leaves a by product of 16% CO2 and H2O.bbking said:
Dion can go after industry all he wants, but until a viable power source other than the internal combustion engine is developed, CO2 levels will continue to rise.
I find it interesting that you see Dion as the environmental savior now. During his tenure as the Minsiter of the Environment, lip service was all he ever brought to the table.bbking said:
Smog, which you consider a "non-greenhouse" pollutant is produced by Nitrous Oxides or NOX. Check the Kyoto Protocol again, this is most definately a greenhouse gas and will also be monitored under the Kyoto agreement.bbking said:
Again you are showing your partisan colours. I suspect all of your conclusions are reached in this manner.bbking said:
Slowpoke,slowpoke said:
Since we seem to be repeating ourselves, may I suggest we agree to disagree?
If you were not so damned stubborn, we could have saved each other a lot of time.slowpoke said:
thought:
Without googling for quotes .. I know it was a US thing but
"Its the economy Stupid"
When push comes to shove even if the environment is the next elections key issue. Any environmental plan needs to take the Oil patch and Auto sector into consideration (for us in Ontario the Auto sector affects a good portion of our jobs, if you don't work directly for a Auto company, the Auto $ probably touches your job somewhere) . So Dion can Argue Koyoto and Harper the non_Koyoto plan , and hopefully the one that Helps the environment the most and hurts the economy least will prevail.
A made in Canada solution still sounds better than this emmison credit .. let China and India carry on and we'll pay but we get to say "Koyoto" doesnt sound "good for the economy"
Heck maybe a made in Canada solution will create some jobs. ..
damn I'm rambling again ... wheres my coffee ?
Without googling for quotes .. I know it was a US thing but
"Its the economy Stupid"
When push comes to shove even if the environment is the next elections key issue. Any environmental plan needs to take the Oil patch and Auto sector into consideration (for us in Ontario the Auto sector affects a good portion of our jobs, if you don't work directly for a Auto company, the Auto $ probably touches your job somewhere) . So Dion can Argue Koyoto and Harper the non_Koyoto plan , and hopefully the one that Helps the environment the most and hurts the economy least will prevail.
A made in Canada solution still sounds better than this emmison credit .. let China and India carry on and we'll pay but we get to say "Koyoto" doesnt sound "good for the economy"
Heck maybe a made in Canada solution will create some jobs. ..
damn I'm rambling again ... wheres my coffee ?
