GTA massage parlour busts

[Trelew]

After reading all the articles in the new medias and the post here and on ED, I realize how grey the situation really is, especially in the GTA.

On one hand I can see the cop's stance on the raids.

From Detective Sergent Paul Gillespie, head of the child explotation unit

This is not an exercise in enforcement. And it's certainly not a morality issue. This is about women, and sometimes children, being exploited, being threatened, or having to work off a debt by performing sex.

I for one would not like to do business from someone who doesn't want to be there in the first place. In the past, I have walked away from places where there are kids working or a lady who has obviously had the crap kicked out of her. I am not going to put money into the hands of some sick bastard who makes his money in this fashion.

But on the other side of things, there is the typical bullshit that I can expect from cops and politics. Cause along with all the RCMP, Welfare workers, and cops were city bi-law enforcement officers. All articles made a point of mentioning that cities ask a licensing fee from both the agency and each person working there. So like most things...it's all about the money!

I do agree that coming down hard on people who force women into the sex industry is a good thing. But what makes it hard is that the sex industry as a whole is in a very murky grey area.

An example, what constitues an adult? In Canada, 16 year old is considered by law an adult. But there are a lot of things that a 16 year old can't do (and shouldn't be doing) Also prostitution is a legal profession in this country but there are over 20 laws in the criminal code that prevents them from earning a living from this profession legally.

Personally I wish the cops and politicians would stop addressing the situation with bandaid solutions.

 

[gala]

Laurelg is right. The industry needs to be legalized. In the long run, that's the only way to guarantee the safety and security of sex workers while at the same time giving the boot to exploitative scum, and keeping abused or screwed up kids from getting themselves involved.

How are we going to get there?

To get things changed you have to generate a public perception that the industry is actually a collection of responsible businesses frequented by ordinary people. That's not the perception now--the public perception is that the industry is a criminal underworld frequented by scum. So long as that's what most people thing the laws will never be changed.

What most people think is wrong, but it's not 100% wrong. While most in the industry are basically honest dealing business people, there are some criminal underworld slimeballs involved. And while most customers are ordinary people, there's some absolute scum out there too. The best way to alter that public perception is for the industry itself to root out those bad apples.

That means MP owners have to go beyond the minimum requirements of the law in ensuring that they run a clean and respectable operation; and customers have to insist on it as well. If you want the dumb politicians to change the dumb laws the only way you're going to get there is to take some responsibility for things yourself and work toward earning a better reputation for the whole industry.

If you keep on letting scum ruin things for everyone and saying dumb things like "that's law enforcements job, not mine" then you'll never get that perception changed, never get those laws changed, and continue to live in fear of persecution and harassment at the hands of the police all because you weren't willing to do your own bit in eliminating the bad apples.

Insist on dealing with reputable people; report (at least to terb) on those you find less than honest. Do that and maybe we'll make some progress towards laurelg's vision of a fully legal future: earn it.

You don't have to listen to me, though, you can carry on with screwing up your life and taking no responsibility for your actions.

 

[bootycall28]

Gala I agree with some of your principles, but you can't reason to save your life. Your flow of thought is all over the place and often times totally contradictory to something you wrote on an earlier post. Before you argue learn how to make sense.

The thread is so frustrating to read. It went from someone reporting the raids. To Bblack feeling sorry for the guy busted, if he was duped. Then to people accusing BBlack of supporting underage prostitution, and sex slavery. From there Gala says he'll call the cops and bust places that have young looking girls that are underage. Let's get back on track here. Gala, stop posting. Please?

Booty

 

[laurelg@maggies]

Laurelg is right. The industry needs to be legalized. .

I would just like to make one correction...I am actually calling for decriminalization not legalization. Legalization has proved to be problematic in places such as Holland and NS Wales (pre-decrim).
I would also like to point out that I would like to see ALL the prostitution laws eradicated...procuring, soliciting and bawdy house.
We already have laws in place that are shunning rape, robbery, assault, murder, child exploitation et al. We don't need a whole new set of laws for prostitution, and that is what would happen if it were to be legalized.
That is all.

 

[bootycall28]

You said decriminalization, Gala said legalization. He has a terrible habit of taking what someone says, and twisting it into something else. He isn't too bright.

Booty

 

[laurelg@maggies]

You said decriminalization, Gala said legalization. He has a terrible habit of taking what someone says, and twisting it into something else. He isn't too bright.

Booty

Actually, many people get the two confused for one another, or think they are the same thing.

Before working at Maggie's I honestly didn't know there was a difference between the two--and I would like to fancy myself as a fairly bright person. So perhaps not stupid, just uneducated on the matter.

 

[bootycall28]

So perhaps not stupid, just uneducated on the matter.

For someone who is obviously uneducated on the matter, he sure talks forever about it.

Booty

 

[gala]

It went from someone reporting the raids. To Bblack feeling sorry for the guy busted, if he was duped. Then to people accusing BBlack of supporting underage prostitution, and sex slavery. From there Gala says he'll call the cops and bust places that have young looking girls that are underage.

Save the BS. BBlack said the guy was duped: I sincerely doubt it. The guy wouldn't have been charged if he had any good reason to think she was an adult. That means the cops think he had no reason to think so, and that means he was at some scummy probably unlicensed hole that obviously wasn't too reputable. There's no way he was at some place that was checking ID carefully, like i'm sure all the MP's whose owners post on terbs say they do (and I'm sure they do).

As for calling the cops: If I knew some kid was being exploited you're damn right I would. I don't buy this crap about mature 17 year olds, and I don't like your twisting around what I said. I never said I'd call the cops just because someone looked young. Bloody hypocritical of you to go twisting peoples words around and then make up stories that other people are twisting things. Makes you look like quite an ass.

Now get the hell out of here and go to somea reputable massage parlour and get your load off so you relax a bit and stop making such a huge fool out of yourself. Really.

 

[booboobear]

As for calling the cops: If I knew some kid was being exploited you're damn right I would. I don't buy this crap about mature 17 year olds, .

And how in your infinite wisdom would you know she was exploited. What if she chose to do it at 15 or 16 I guess it's your right to tell her she can't ?

 

[BigBlack]

Save the BS. BBlack said the guy was duped: I sincerely doubt it.

Firstly you have no clue about the situation. I never said he was duped, I said If he was duped i would feel bad for him. You know I said this, and I suspect you're just a 13 year old kid having some fun on terb today by toying on a serious issue.

The guy wouldn't have been charged if he had any good reason to think she was an adult.

How the hell would you know? He was charged because she was underage...end of story. Police always overcharge. They can be dropped at a later date, and contested in court if need be. I know since I am in the corrections field.

That means the cops think he had no reason to think so, and that means he was at some scummy probably unlicensed hole that obviously wasn't too reputable.

Again, how the hell do you know this? Any girl can get a great fake I.D. Tracy lords bluffed a nation/ the world for 3 years. Why do you say things you know nothing about. Get the facts first. is this too much to ask? The cops charged him because he committed the offence. Period! The courts will determine whether he had reason or not. The charges made for great headlines and exposure.

There's no way he was at some place that was checking ID carefully, like i'm sure all the MP's whose owners post on terbs say they do (and I'm sure they do).

You don't think the owners of mp's who don't have licenses aren't on Terb either? How do you know this? How are you so "SURE?" Until you know the place stop making these assumptions. It's just not based on any sort of evidence or fact.

As for calling the cops: If I knew some kid was being exploited you're damn right I would. I don't buy this crap about mature 17 year olds, and I don't like your twisting around what I said. I never said I'd call the cops just because someone looked young. Bloody hypocritical of you to go twisting peoples words around and then make up stories that other people are twisting things. Makes you look like quite an ass.

You did say that. I quote "Report here or even to the police if you suspect a girl is underage or not."

It's sentences like this that make it clear you're just a young kid having fun if you're an adult, that's incredible sad for humanity). You suggest we report on terb, or call the cops (which could result in a raid) if we SUSPECT (not know or have any evidence) a girl is underage OR NOT? Or not ???????????????? So you want us to call the cops if we think a girl is underage . ----if she isn't ( OR NOT) call anyways!!--- You are advocating calling on every working mpa in this case.

You are twisting his words, and look like a total ass!!!

Now get the hell out of here and go to somea reputable massage parlour and get your load off so you relax a bit and stop making such a huge fool out of yourself. Really.

You've made a total fool of yourself. My words, bootys, Tongue's, booboo even laur@maggie's have been twisted by you. Either this is a joke from you, or your reading comprehension level is severely retarded. I suspect the former (going to give you the benefit of the doubt here).

If you keep up the nonsense, you'll be warned. Just a word of advice. THis nonsense isn't tolerated on Terb.

BBLACK

 

[SirLickheralot]

Teen sweep

Raid targets 350 massage parlours to pull in girls

By KIM BRADLEY, TORONTO SUN

Stroble hopes Ontario's new lawmakers recognize the importance of new legislation that would see massage-parlour owners face large fines if they were caught employing kids.

The politicians care more about money than protecting children. If they were more interested in protecting the interests of underage girls why wouldn't the owners face criminal charges instead of just fines. An unwitting customer could end up facing much harsher justice than the scumbag pimps.

You can't place the onus of verifying all the girls ages on the customers, it should be on the MPs. It isn't always that easy to tell how old someone is by looking at them, until I was 25 I still had people ask me what grade I was in. It would be easy enough for a licenced establishment to hire underage girls or an unlicenced establishment to make up fake licences. The punishment for hiring underage girls so harsh as to deter this practice.

 

[BigBlack]

I know Sheik, but I wasn't going to go tell the mods or get Fred involved here ( you guys work hard enough, and it's the holidays). He'll just get the attention he wants. I remember Lyla getting banned for doing this exact thing. It was just a forecast about what could happen if this keeps up thread after thread.

Merry Christmas

BBLACK

 

[gala]

Hey Sheik--I agree about the ID thing, which is why I think the emphasis has to be on the reputation of the venue. You're trusting the owner to have checked the IDs and such--that's a lot of trust. Licensed is a good sign, with the license on display. A good reputation for honest dealing on TERB is a good sign too. A place lacking in either of those things shouldn't get your business.

Booboobear: You asked what if a 15 year old girl wants to be working as a prostitute: If you think that's OK, you need a doctor. Seriously dude, I don't think you really mean that, because that's sick. I hope that was a "for the sake of argument" kind of thing there, and you lose that argument: At fifteen she should be in school figuring out what to do with her life, not getting paid to have sex with old men.

BBlack: You can always make up situations where it'd be impossible to know for sure, but in those situations you'd _never_ be charged. I'm saying if you insist on going only to venues that seem to have high standards you've done your due dilligence--it's reasonable to think the owner checked carefully. If you're in an unlicensed place and the girl looks young you're pretty much at fault.

One thing that I said that came out wrong and maybe will chill this whole thing out: "Call the police if she looks underage or not", the "or not" is a typo or something, maybe I meant to type "if you can't tell if she's old enough or not" it came out wrong. If that's what you're all upset about chill, I only think you should call the police or bylaw officer or whoever if you suspect someone's underage.

 

[Uzo]

I wonder what motivated the cops to raid the places they did? These boards? People on the inside? Priors with the same places??? Just curious.

 

[james t kirk]

I am with BigBlack on this one.

The guy could have been duped, who knows. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between 17 and 18.

Funny, i was thinking about venturing out for a nice massage last night, but i wasn't horny enough to justify it. Phew.

To be honest, I must be naive, but I have only once ever been offered full service at an MP, and it was literally the first MP i ever went to like 6 years ago. Never been offered any more than the usual.

Anyway, it is good to note that with all the places they went to they only found something like 4 or 5 underage girls after questioning over 500. Hardly a big problem.

I would be interested to hear from some of the MPAs who were in the massage parlours that were raided and how the cops behaved.

 

[pool]

The guy could have been duped, who knows. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between 17 and 18.

Especially considering it can make as little as one day of a difference and technically if you knew the time she were born it could be a matter of minutes.

I don't mean to make light of the law, but it is a grey area even though it is necessary in our society to set these guidelines, to maintain a standard according to our societies values.

 

[gala]

OK. Let's apply the reasonable person test. A reasonable person would think that the girls in a licensed, bylaw compliant place had had their IDs carefully checked by the owner. A reasonable person might doubt that an unlicensed place was as careful--maybe it wouldn't check, maybe it wouldn't care. So if the guy got cought in a licensed place I think he deserves a break. I think a judge would think so too: He had no reason to doubt that the girl was 18. But if he got caught in an unlicensed place then he had reason to doubt her age and he's guilty--it's his responsibility to verify her age when there's reason to doubt she's 18.

 

[Trelew]

I wonder what motivated the cops to raid the places they did? These boards? People on the inside? Priors with the same places??? Just curious.

What motivated action on these places? $$$

Every news media that reported on this event had a common statement beyond the obvious. And that was the fact that every MP had to be licensed and every worker with in that MP had to be licensed. I'm guess some government beaurcrat decided that they were not getting thier cut from all the MPs that are out there.

Sure, the cops were saying that they were protecting women at risk, such as children and illegal immergants that are put to work as sex slaves.

So what is the solution? Obviously all levels of government are reluctant to do something concrete about the problem. And the owner's who force ladies into this situation are not going to do anything about it. My suggestion is for ourselves to police the industry. You can publish the names of MPs that employ children and force illegal immergrants to work there. As well as refusing to use their establishment.

I don't know you guys but I would rather go to a place where the ladies there are not children and want to be working there! First hand, I have experience both sides of this coin...and let me tell you, the experience is much better when the lady wants to be there than one who has been force/manipulated into the business.

 

[Douggk]

Well I am sorry for the distress this has caused all of you, however it could have been worse, and still could be. There could have been many criminal charges against everyone. Here in Alberta , they did the same thing quietly though. There were inspections and fines and some revoked liscences and charges. Then a month later , the big raids started. Its the same all throughout Canada now. Decriminalization would be the best bet for these types of services. There seems to be a real harsh judgement against all forms of prostitution. It leaves the women wondering where is safe to work. So there are more women on the streets out here, but a serail killer and various nuts out beating up women on the loose. The streets were busted 2 days in a row 2 weeks ago. They are really cracking down everywhere . You guys have to tell your politicians that you want prostitution decriminalized or these kinds of raids,or worse, will continue. Good luck to the girls at Maggies.

 

[bar+leby88]

MP Attendant: Is this some kind of bust?
Cop: It's very impressive, yes.